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 What's the point of the assault rifle? |
 Jan 5 2008, 10:12 PM
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#26
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The ShadowComedian  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525  |
as for why the PAC needs recoil compensation: if i remember correctly, you had to resist 9l stun damage minus impact armor when firing said weapon without bi/tripod or something like that. .
Edit: Modifiers to Damage from burst/Full Auto never came into consideration with hardened Armor . . is why you could just shake off a direct hit from a vindicator while wearing heavy security or military armor which counted as hardened . . because they had an ballaistics rating of 7 and the vindicator had a power niveau of 7 before the +15 for each bullet . . so vindicator with a powerniveau NOT GREATER THAN THE BALLISTICS RATING OF THE HARDENED ARMOR . . just kinda went poof withoutexex or something like that . . Edit2: you had in fact a better chance of hurting someone with hardened security if you were using a heavy pistol, sports rifle, HMG or some AssaultRifles/SMG's . . |
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Jan 5 2008, 10:17 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Oh no not this argument again! Can someone post the links to the other 147 threads on this topic before we get a full blown derail? |
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Jan 5 2008, 10:21 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yes, as a matter of fact, we are sure. |
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Jan 5 2008, 11:33 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 1-December 05 Member No.: 8,031 |
Thank you! We have been playing wrong.
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Jan 6 2008, 05:12 AM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
At least for single shots, the bipod increase your maximum effective range. Here's some rough math: Assume I'm using a rifle capable of 1 MOA accuracy. I want to hit targets in the torso, meaning that I mark maximum effective range as the range that the rifle will put a bullet in a 12 inch circle. Bolted to a table, the max effective range of the rifle is ~1200 yards. But, in the field, that rifle won't be bolted to a table, I'll be holding it shooting at people. From the standing, unsupported position, I contribute 2 MOA of inaccuracy to the rifle. This means that my maximum effective range is only 400 yards. From the prone, unsupported position I only contribute 1MOA of inaccuracy to the rifle, so my effective range increases to 600 yards. From the prone, supported position (using the bipod) I contribute .5 MOA of inaccuracy to the rifle. This means my maximum effective range is 800 yards. Of course, this assumes that there is no wind. Its a question of who steady I can hold the rifle, not how strong I am. From the standing, unsupported position, I have to worry about how much my whole body twitches, for stuff like heart beat, digestion, muscle fatigue, breathing, and so on. Being stronger doesn't really help. |
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Jan 6 2008, 05:22 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
Now I have this great image of runners carrying tables around with them so they can bolt down their weapons for maximum accuracy. |
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Jan 6 2008, 06:04 AM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I was trying to shoot a damn AR in a gusty 20-30 mph wind last week. I couldn't keep the sights on target (at 200 meters) trying to fight the wind gusts off-hand, I had to get my elbows on a shooting table. Then it was easy to hit the steel. Someday I keep planning to get a decent rifle.... |
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Jan 6 2008, 12:52 PM
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#33
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Edit: Beaten by Jaid, did not notice before. Yes, we are sure.
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Jan 6 2008, 04:28 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
No self-respecting power gamer leaves his hideout without a top of the line 400 kilo mahogany rifle-bolting table! |
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Jan 6 2008, 05:11 PM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
No, he can't. Pg 141, You can use two pistols or SMGs, thats it. (Which interestingly enough makes it so you can't use a taser and something else). |
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Jan 6 2008, 06:02 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
Don't tasers fall under the pistol catagory? They do after all use the pistol skill.
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Jan 6 2008, 08:06 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
I'm not sure that's the case, but yeah, long barreled guns are a pain indoors. One of the key things you don't want to do it to telegraph your presence around the corner before you can shoot into the room. Sticking your 26" sniper rifle barrel into the doorway at chest height tells someone inside the door that if they hose down the doorway they will probably get you. And if they are waiting just inside they can grab the barrel and start doing bad things to you. With shotguns we used the indoor ready, which had the muzzle pointing just outside and in front of your non-shooting side toes. This means you have a pretty long way to raise the muzzle. However, shooting someone in the shins with a 12 gauge at 2 feet is still going to get their attention. In terms of turning I'm not sure it's slower to turn with a rifle than a pistol. You are turning your hips, which turns at the same rate either way, right? |
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Jan 6 2008, 08:45 PM
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#38
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Ah, one could easily put that in the game with a reaction penalty for indoor long-arm users for reaction tests on entering a room. I think my players will like that, it might give SMGs a better position vs. ARs.
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Jan 6 2008, 11:06 PM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The trouble with making such a general rule for a category of weapons is that it won't always make sense. I look at the picture of the HK227X, with its traditional rifle design, and compare it to the compact design of the Ares Alpha with its bull-pup configuration, and the latter is the one that looks like it would be easier to use in close quarters. Heck, the Mossberg AM-CMDT is designed for house-to-house combat. |
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Jan 6 2008, 11:18 PM
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#40
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Yes, that is likely true. Without being an expert, I´d say that any rule on the abstraction level of SR4 is likely to be false on many occasions. So if a justification for weapon classes with different qualities exists (here: Range vs. indoor use), even the two gun nuts in my group will have fun by choosing the "right" weapon for the job. |
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Jan 7 2008, 06:18 PM
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#41
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I was going by the weapon categories in the back of the book, where tasers have their own heading before the pistols. |
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Jan 7 2008, 06:29 PM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
There's various ways to interpret "designed for house-to-house combat." I generally interpret it as meaning the weapon should be rugged, reliable, able to hit quickly and hard, able to reload quickly and easily, not so large that it gets hung up on corners (note the folding stock), and if you have to bash someone in the head with it, it won't break. That doesn't mean that a submachinegun wouldn't be smaller. |
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Jan 7 2008, 06:31 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Is the indoor ready for shotgun based on shooting with stock against shoulder, or tucked between elbow and hip? I'm speaking with no close quarters training, have only shot from fixed position at fixed targets, so take this with grain of salt. I imagine that if I walked into a room scanning for hostiles, I'd prefer my odds of getting on target quickly if I were pointing a handgun, or SMG at waist level with shoulder sling, rather than properly aiming a sniper rifle with stock on shoulder and looking through the sights (let alone the scope). I can imagine the inertia of the long barrel actually slowing, slightly, how fast I could turn. There are people who believe that within 5 meters, don't bother with the sights, just point and shoot. Does close quarters training assume that you know your friendlies, and everyone else is hostile? Shadowrun includes situations in which you're already at conversational range with someone, and then the deal goes south, or the Humanis guards realize that you're a disguised elf, or whatever, and suddenly a gunfight starts. Sometimes it's gun against katana, with enough armor that the first hit doesn't necessarily end the fight. In the highly unlikely and undesirable position that I had a gun and were trying to kill an armored swordsman before he stabbed or slashed me to death, I can't imagine maintaining a firing range stance. If I did, then it seems inaccurate for a game to represent me as getting REA+Dodge to avoid the katana; I'd be as easy to hit as a mannequin. No? |
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Jan 7 2008, 08:05 PM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
You have the butt of the shotgun in the shoulder pocket.
Sniper rifles have no sights, just a scope. Ok, there are versions that have a bastardized setup where you supposedly have iron sights, but I'm told they suck and screw up your ability to use the scope. The last time I heard anyone doing reaction drills with a sniper rifle it was using the scope turrets as really crude sights, and he found it easy to miss at 20 feet. Plus 15 pound sniper rifles don't make that fun. SR ignores this , but long range sniper rifles are typically quite heavy for stability. At 3 meters with a pistol I can shoot based on pointing and usually hit. I can often hit the head target on an ipsc target.. You can shoot from retention with a pistol and likely hit. At 5 meters it's not so likely. You go to "flash sight pictures" and such and shoot hammers. At about 10 meters few people can shoot hammers successfully and you go to controlled pairs, where you reacquire the sight picture between shots. It's easier to shoot with a rifle or shotgun fast than a pistol. It points better, you have a better idea of how it's lined up, etc. Doing head shots with a carbine is easy at 25 meters, it's not with a pistol. Unless you are shooting from retention the pistol is at arms length in front of you, so a 14.5" carbine would add 6 inches or so of barrel in front of that instead of the 3 inches of a Glock? A shotgun maybe a foot, a sniper rifle two feet? CQB is typically fighting inside buildings and modern version require that you identify hostiles, bystanders and friendlies in most cases. Otherwise you end up killing hte wrong people. Once the you know the room is full of bad guys it sucks to be a bystander in the room, as they are likely to killed. Never gotten formal training on this, it's what SWAT teams and infantry do. For really close range stuff it's ugly. I've been taught that you should typically go HtH if you are within arms reach and someone goes for a weapon. They have one or two hands occupied, you don't, so hurt them a lot right now. Though there are also some very quick draw and shoot from retention drills while you strike at their face with your other arm to keep them from getting the weapon out. Then you shoot them a lot really fast. Basically it's really hard to miss with a pistol at 3 feet, so you really want to stop them from shooting at you. Shootouts in bathrooms rarely end well. Similarly, you don't want to try to go for a gun when someone leaps at you from 5 feet with a knife (or their bare hands). If you don't have one in your hands you'll be sliced to ribbons (beaten unconscious) by the time you get it out. |
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Jan 7 2008, 08:18 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
Well, most of the discusion here has goten beyond me as I don't regularly fire weapons at a range or anything like that, but I can make this small addition.
Yeah, the inerita of a long barrel weapon is going to be small that it may reduce the time it take you to turn by... oh an entire milisecond maybe? Likely not even that much, you would just exert a minimal amout of extra force to compensate for the inerita. We are after all talking about the inertia of a few pound object, one which I might add, we have a pivot point on near our body. We arn't talking about the inertia of a car here. It is like saying the gravity field of a bowling ball is a significant factor in knocking down all the pins. All that aside however I think the discussion is quickly getting very far away from the subect of the OP. |
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