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 Cyberware Limits, What about surgical options on Essence? |
 Jan 9 2008, 02:37 PM
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#26
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The ShadowComedian  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525  |
yes yes in augmentation(i still have to get my GM to approve some of the ports i wanna make from SR4 to SR3 from that stuff <.<) and probably most GM's just allow that as a house-rule too . . but as we are here in the good old SR3 boards in Man and Machine? O.o
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Jan 9 2008, 02:42 PM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I believe Medical Equipment is specific equipment, not "anything medically-related", but I don't have time to check.
~J |
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Jan 9 2008, 02:50 PM
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#28
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I rarely even notice which of the dumb sub-forums to which a thread is posted. I can't wait for the Administration to fix this abomination. :D |
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Jan 9 2008, 02:53 PM
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#29
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
*gg*
i don't really care . . i like what you did with augmentation, even if i hate SR4 <.< |
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Jan 9 2008, 03:35 PM
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#30
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Wait a minute here. You don't notice which forum things are posted in, and therefore can't identify which version they're referring to, and your solution is to merge the fora, thus eliminating even the indicator which you already miss? ~J |
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Jan 9 2008, 05:25 PM
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#31
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It was a slight exaggeration. ;) I take note of the actual forum when I notice the need. I can normally judge the edition referred to by the context of the post (everyone makes mistakes, but my track record speaks well enough). As to an 'indicator', I don't see any in existance on Dumpshock for SR1 or SR2. I wonder how people identify questions relating to these editions. And yes, my solution, which as far as I know is the proposed future fix, is to merge both forums into one. There is no need for both, and they only serve to create confusion. But you know all of this, as we have discussed it before at length in the appropriate threads. |
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Jan 9 2008, 05:45 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,028 |
Ha ha! Come on! What happens when one of the PCs sign up for cybermancy at Aztechnology's shiny Technotitlan facility.
"Sorry sir, I see you are a player character. You'll have to come down here to the Rating 6 medical equipment. What's that? Cybermancy needs rating 8 delta grade gear, oh don't be silly sir, you'll be fine." I've never heard more nonsense come out of someones mouth than that. As for this mythical +5 surgery modifier for deltaware as oppossed to betaware, the actual difference is +2 I'm fairly certain. I should add that I have no books in front of me just now, but am 99.99% sure that beta adds +3 to the TN and delta adds +5 to the TN. Meaning the difference between them is only +2, or one Essence reduction option. I suppose maybe there is a point to delta after all Mr. Trollman, aside from the already greater resistance to stress and concealability. On the subject of augmentation, pretty much all I've ported so far is some geneware, one or two nanoware systems and the much more sensible rules for cyberzombies (playable and fearsome at last!!!) I was pretty disappointed overall with the cyberware and bioware sections, there hasn't really been any truly new and cool cyber/bio introduced since Cybertechnology came out in the mid-90's!!! Remember back when that teased the digestive replacement and the like that never materialised? Even then bioware hasn't really had a significant amount added since Shadowtech, the first SR supplement I ever laid my hands on (still one of the best). Annoyingly several items didn't even make it, including the Tac computer (which was smashed to pieces going from SR2 to 3 anyway). |
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Jan 9 2008, 05:51 PM
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#33
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
my GM quickly agreed to the Cyberlimbs being more or less ported entirely to SR3 . .
and things like the hover feet and the gecko option and such things are pretty nifty too ^^ |
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Jan 9 2008, 05:56 PM
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#34
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
By adding a lot of unnecessary text specifying which version they're talking about. Easily solved by adding specific fora for them (and no low traffic arguments from anyone, at least not until all of the so-called "Archived" fora other than the Duels forum go away (or read-only)).
I certainly don't know that there's no need for both! (I know the opposite) But yes, with the appropriate qualifiers, you're absolutely correct that we're both fully aware of each others' positions and have discussed it at length. I offer the dissenting position for the audience more than to convince you :) ~J |
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Jan 9 2008, 05:57 PM
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#35
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. It's +3 for Beta. It's +6 for Delta. And if you use tools of a better grade than needed to implant the grade you are implanting, you get a -2 bonus. So using Delta Grade Tools to implant Betaware is +1 TN, using the same tools to implant Deltaware is +6. You can look it up when you get home, but that is seriously what it says. I looked at it from a lot of different angles trying to find the best way to port it to SR4. Seriously the best way is to remove it. It's a bad subsystem. -Frank |
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Jan 9 2008, 06:00 PM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,028 |
The better surgical tools mod is one I forgot about, so I accept it.
However I still like the rules, despite their flaws. We'll keep using them whilst we use SR3 at least. |
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Jan 9 2008, 11:02 PM
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#37
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
~hmmm~ Yeah I like them too ... particularly the part about all implants at a cost of 0.01 Essence per piece ... and the absolute need the make a house rule that deals with the contradictions and loopholes created by the wording. |
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Jan 9 2008, 11:07 PM
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#38
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
biggest problem i have wit the old style M&M Medicine Rules is that there is close to no way to be really sure of how much essence something will cost you . . say i have 0,6 essence left and decide to get a smartlink(why ever it would not be allready in there with so much essence allready left) on standard installed . . usually 0,5 essence cost . . now some bad rolls later the whole thingie costs me about 0,7 essence and bam, dead character . .
-------------------------------------------- http://www.otakyasha.de/nsrcg.zip < = latest version of the NSRCG including german .dat files http://de.geocities.com/nekekami_the_ghost/RC2SWF.swf < = RunCreator2, little tool for creating runs on the quick . . only in german sadly |
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Jan 9 2008, 11:08 PM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Fair enough. |
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Jan 9 2008, 11:11 PM
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#40
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Actually, for me that was the one and only good part about the rules: You could die on the operation table ... But then again ... I never meet a player who took Essence oder Bioindex Increase as one of the two negative options he had to take when the operation could lead to such a result. |
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Jan 9 2008, 11:14 PM
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#41
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,526 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
well . . i usually use dice or throw of a coin for such things. . i figure if i have to rely on luck most of the time, i can take that little step too *g*
and in our shadowrun you can die EVERY TIME on the Table . . Essence 6 and you decide to get a Datajack? well, either you're taking someone in there to guard you or you have the probability of simply not waking up again . . but as of right now, we're basically not using huge chunks of the rules . . not the medicine stuff, not the arsenal advanced close combat stuff, not the rigger and matrix stuff . . and we're working on using the full magic potential right now . . luckyly i am the combat machine twink and don't have to bother with that untill the GM's decide they want to use that stuff *g* -------------------------------------------- http://www.otakyasha.de/nsrcg.zip < = latest version of the NSRCG including german .dat files http://de.geocities.com/nekekami_the_ghost/RC2SWF.swf < = RunCreator2, little tool for creating runs on the quick . . only in german sadly |
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Jan 20 2008, 10:48 AM
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#42
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,928 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Wow, way to disregard the rules and my prior post showing how they put a cap on the problem at 6, or 8 if one wants to argue (houserule) availability. Even 8 Positive Options is only -40% Essence. Anything with a base essence cost over .82 cannot be reduced to .01 essence, hardly all implants. By the rules and a cap of 6, figure anything costing more than .62 essence to start. |
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Jan 20 2008, 01:52 PM
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#43
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually with seven hits on an already difficult Ettiquette test you can find a Shadowclinic with medical gear rated at 14, which allows for 14 positive options (theoretically). You can't own medical gear with a rating greater than 6 for some reason, but you can have people operate on you with gear up to Rating 14, which is substantially more than you need for anything, ever.
-Frank |
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Jan 21 2008, 08:19 PM
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#44
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,278 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Little "corrections" there: Deltaclinic has a initial rating of 8 ... Now look at p. 143 of M&M and find out that you can use extra successes on your search test to increase the rating of medical gear up to 6 points => the maximum rating a clinic can have is 14 which would translate in up to 14 positive options. Now take a look at the maximum skill rating a random doctor can have in such a facility: 10 as a result of a 2d6 roll with a modifier of +4 due to delta grade clinic. You'd thus need an elven of twelve roll => The factual maximum is 10 positive option on the procedure list, when only having a "random" doctor. I'm not going to bother with the idea of having a PC-surgeon who might have a even higher skill rating or specialization for implant surgery (which would allow to go for -60% percent on betaware and "exploit" what has been said for installing betagrade implants in a delta clinic at reduced Tns). Thus the maximum reduction that can be achieved is: -50% on our "random" doc. O.k. so where's the next problem? Pretty simple: Is the reduction generated with surgery options additive to the essence reduction of the implant type or cumulative? Example for a delta grade Move-by-Wire-IV: Base Essence Cost: 7 Cumulative: Base Cost*0.5 (delta)*0.5(10*Essence Reduction) = Base Cost * 0.25 = 1,75 in case of said MbW Additive: (-50% (delta) + -50% (10*Essence Reduction)) = -100% Essence reduction Since minimum Implant Cost is fixed to 0.01 Essence as per page 45 M&M I just proved that in theory it is very well possible to get all implants at 0.01 per implant without disregarding any rule. Now to the contradictions / loopholes that (might) require house ruling: As per page 144 you make a surgical test against the TN of the procedure. This test is both a success test and an open test against Surgical Threshold. Going by just this wording, the TN for the sucess test could e.g. be 4 while the Threshold is 24 when actually having those 10 Essence Reductions on the surgery plan. The surgeon would then need 13 successes and his highest roll would have to be the 24 and then you'd have that 100% reduction on a delta implant. Unfortunately the rules get inconsistant (even on page 144): According to the explaination concerning the open test, the surgical options on the procedural list modify the Threshold "as options are reached", which would mean step by step during the procedure and only after you already made the particular option on the list come true. Now let's just pretend that our surgeon actually has those 13 successes and we only have to find out now what his results must be to have them: 1: Base TN of surgery test 2: Base TN of surgery test 3: Base TN of surgery test 4: Base TN of surgery test .. 1st positive option reached, increase threshold 5: Base TN of surgery + 2 .. 2nd positive option reached, increase threshold 6: Base TN of surgery + 4 .. 3rd positive option reached, increase threshold 7: Base TN of surgery + 6 .. 4th positive option reached, increase threshold 8: Base TN of surgery + 8 .. 5th positive option reached, increase threshold 9: Base TN of surgery + 10 .. 6th positive option reached, increase threshold 10: Base TN of surgery + 12 .. 7th positive option reached, increase threshold 11: Base TN of surgery + 14 .. 8th positive option reached, increase threshold 12: Base TN of surgery + 16 .. 9th positive option reached, increase threshold 14: Base TN of surgery + 18 .. 10th positive option reached The threshold increase of the last step is irrelevant since there are no further options to achieve. Difference in TN is -2 on the highest value and suddenly the wording would require stepped successe not just the highest value which is still important for cases where you don't meet the highest roll number but have to try to figure out which options actually have successfully been reached. So now you have to decide which mechanic actually is correct ... but that's not the point where it stops ... Now take a look at page 148 under Surgical Options where it suddenly says that Positive options also list a threshold modifier, which increase the target number for the Surgery Test (see Surgucal Tests, p. 146). "Oddly" enough the rule on page 146 deals only with the success test part of a Surgical Test => Suddenly the threshold modifiers also become TN modifiers on the success test => the TN of the example surgery now is 4 + 20 = 24 and it becomes even fuzzier how to deal with the open success test part, since that one would be obsolete. All in all: These rules were just FUBARed and as small as the chances might be, those rules allow for a series of 0.01 Essence implants ... be it an retinal clock or a Move-By-Wire. |
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