Game level - Dumpshock Forums

Game level, Why must it be street?

DTFarstar View Member Profile	Jan 21 2008, 08:01 PM Post #451
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421	sniff But it was so funny! Chris

Fortune

Jan 21 2008, 09:02 PM

Post #452

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

Frank is taking a couple weeks off ...

Ouch! Harsh! :eek:

Maybe a small part of those next two weeks will be downtime for everyone as the software (or whatever) is changed (or whatever).

D Minor View Member Profile	Jan 21 2008, 09:05 PM Post #453
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 102 Joined: 9-June 07 Member No.: 11,880	I agree with fortune that seems a bit harsh. But then I'm not a mod :)

Jhaiisiin View Member Profile	Jan 21 2008, 09:24 PM Post #454
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,416 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Albuquerque Member No.: 8,334	I agree with Fortune that the time off is a good time to do the forum update. :] I kid! Please don't hit me!

Ryu View Member Profile	Jan 21 2008, 10:27 PM Post #455
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	A couple of weeks? Is that the usual period? I assume Frank was warned in private.

Stahlseele

Jan 21 2008, 10:30 PM

Post #456

The ShadowComedian

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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

This may seem a little late in coming, but Frank is taking a couple weeks off

pity, i like his style . . but then, i am more or less prone to similar behaviour as seen in the thread about marriage for example *g*

Redjack

Jan 21 2008, 10:46 PM

Post #457

Man Behind the Curtain

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QUOTE (Ryu)

A couple of weeks? Is that the usual period? I assume Frank was warned in private.

Please realize that a multi-week suspension is not given for a first offense.

Fortune View Member Profile	Jan 21 2008, 11:25 PM Post #458
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	I wasn't implying that it wasn't necessarily warranted (ain't my problem! :D). Just making a comment about the length, as it surprised me for a moment.

Ryu

Jan 22 2008, 01:12 AM

Post #459

Awakened Asset

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QUOTE (Redjack)

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 21 2008, 05:27 PM)

A couple of weeks? Is that the usual period? I assume Frank was warned in private.

Please realize that a multi-week suspension is not given for a first offense.

I do not know the usual customs, I was merely surprised at the length.

DTFarstar

Jan 22 2008, 02:40 AM

Post #460

Running Target

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Personally I've been banned and/or black listed from many sites and mailing lists. Because I am a raging and uncompromising asshole.

I was banned from the L5R rules discussion lists because I pointed out a flaw in the rules and proposed a fix (which was ultimately adopted).

I was banned from WotC's D&D board because people had begun quoting me back and forth with Skip Williams in arguments about how rules interacted.

I left the Nifty Boards and vowed never to return because one of the mods was a neo-Nazi and after a very large flame war where we both broke just about every rule the site ever had the mods agreed to... not do anything to either of us. So I told them that they should probably enforce their own rules and left.

I got warned on ENWorld because I said that Gygax was a plagarist and poor model to base gaming upon.

And I've gotten temporary bans here oh... a couple of times. Mostly for being a dick.

-Frank

Just in case anyone has forgotten the "Bad Bad Boy" thread over in the Dumpshock News, Bugs Reports, etc. So we know this is not a first offense for our favorite boy Frank. I will miss him though, he makes me laugh quite a bit, partly because his insults are funny and partly because of how worked up he seems to get about these things. I just can't understand caring that much, but I'm glad he does.

Chris

fistandantilus4.... fistandantilus4.0 View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 04:13 AM Post #461
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928	Ryu, so that you're aware of the process/procedure, two weeks is not the standard time for a Suspension. We generally try to avoid discussing the affects of moderation, as we don't think it's polite to air dirty laundry so to speak. In this case, we concluded that this should be known firstly because of Frank's active discussion in this thread. Secondly, because this isn't the first, or third time Frank has been given a time off break. We've talked about personal attacks in the past, and a lot of the time, we try and give lots of leeway. Frank does come off harshly, and he as well as others have been given more ground in the past than may be strictly allowed by the rules. This was pretty blatant. So he has a longer suspension this time around because this is a very repeat issue. Usually if it's your first break, it's only a couple of days, and it gets longer from there as things progress, if they do. In general, we also give PM warnings when someone does something they shouldn't. Those we also don't advertise for the same reasons. In this case, Frank has had more than enough PM warnings to know what is and isn't acceptable. We now return you to your normally scheduled thread rants.:) Thank you, come again.

Cardul

Jan 22 2008, 06:15 AM

Post #462

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Cain)

I did bring up the Magic Bullet theory. Stranger things have happened. If you want a cinematic example, watch the original Batman movie.

Original Batman movie? You mean the one where Batman pulled a full sized Acetiline torch(1920's to 30's era) from his utility belt? Or the one with the exploding shark?

Glyph View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 07:33 AM Post #463
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449	Not the real original, with Adam West. The other one, with Mr. Mom playing Batman. ;)

Cain

Jan 22 2008, 08:21 AM

Post #464

Grand Master of Run-Fu

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QUOTE

You're intentionally ignoring and discounting any intelligent discourse coming from Frank.

Yes, I am. When someone gets as heated as Frank has gotten, there is nowhere else to go except for hurt feelings. I am not going to go there. I rrespect the guy more than that. So, for my own sake, I'm going to put on my flameproof undies and not dig through his ranting for useful arguments. :noflame:

[Edit] I didn't see the outcome until after I posted. I feel very bad for my part in this.

QUOTE

Feedback is welcome and even sometimes employed in our games, however we've all been of the opinion it's best to let the game play out WITHOUT the players knowing what's happening ahead of time, or basically turning the game one way or the other by changing NPC's or what-have-you. You get more genuine reactions and situations when the players are broadsided by that plot twist they never saw coming. Not knowing where the story is going keeps our players interested, intrigued and on their toes. They're constantly guessing at what the GM might have planned, and make their plans for it. The GM, on the other hand, sometimes doesn't have a clue what's coming next, but lets the story unfold however it will, allowing the player's assumptions to generate the next line in the plot. It's a surprisingly effective way of running the game, but requires a GM who can think up entire scenarios on the fly as the game changes course.

You don't need to know what's happening in advance. Instead, you have even more input into the story than ever before. To go to the Wushu extreme, you're literally dictating events as they unfold, and the GM-- which, you say, yours already do-- runs with it. It's the same thing you say you have, only taken to the next level.

QUOTE

Which leaves my point completely unaddressed. Mr. Lucky is doing what Mr. Lucky is designed to do and allowed to do by the rules - he is lucky. He has invested a huge number of points in being lucky.

Actually, mfb's example-- which I didn't make very clear, I admit-- involves a normal sam with 17-20 dice in an appropriate weapons skill and maybe an Edge of 3. He can make the shot just as readily.

QUOTE

I have always loved that scene. It makes no sense that the Joker should be able to shoot down the Batplane. It's also inexplicable how he just stands there holding out his arms in mock invitation to the missiles that explode harmlessly around him. But it makes perfect sense thematically and that's what I love - the deliberate pitting of logic vs. theme and the victory of theme. At that moment, the audience understands intuitively that we have entered a different state and it sets things up perfectly for the final showdown in the church tower.

Which kind-of is my point. Thematically, the shot fits the movie and is an excellent plot setup. However, judging by the responses in this thread, the Citymaster doesn't fit thematically. However, since the rules allow and encourage this sort of thing, we have the thematic disconnect I was discussing earlier.

Fuchs View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 09:34 AM Post #465
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014	All I got, after pages and pages, is that Cain basically ignores the rules that say that the GM has to decide if there's a vulnerable spot on an APC. The general long shot odds seem to be handled perfectly well by the rest already - if people do not want a character such as Mr. Lucky with 8 edge, and therefore legendary luck, in their campaign they can always ban them. I really don't see the problem. There seems to be some issue with GM power, which makes it a personal issue, and not a rules issue. So, while it is a matter of preference whether the GM makes such calls, or a designated rules lawyer, or group consensus prevails, the fact seems to be that the rules are flexible enough to handle all the supposed problems to the satisfaction of the specific group and their theme. I'd not call this "encouraging such shots", I call this "flexible enough for multiple, different playstyles". Which is a good thing, in my opinion.

Cardul

Jan 22 2008, 09:44 AM

Post #466

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Cain)

QUOTE

I have always loved that scene. It makes no sense that the Joker should be able to shoot down the Batplane. It's also inexplicable how he just stands there holding out his arms in mock invitation to the missiles that explode harmlessly around him. But it makes perfect sense thematically and that's what I love - the deliberate pitting of logic vs. theme and the victory of theme. At that moment, the audience understands intuitively that we have entered a different state and it sets things up perfectly for the final showdown in the church tower.

Which kind-of is my point. Thematically, the shot fits the movie and is an excellent plot setup. However, judging by the responses in this thread, the Citymaster doesn't fit thematically. However, since the rules allow and encourage this sort of thing, we have the thematic disconnect I was discussing earlier.

I think the difference between the two is this:

Aircraft are fragile, especially modern aircraft. The Bat-plane was probably made of ultra-light weight materials and things like carbon fiber. Now, taking down a ww2 or even Koreans, or, heck, even Vietnam era fighter with a pistol would be laughed at, because, well, those had actual ARMOUR. The Bat-plane most likely was more like a modern stealth aircraft made of carbon fiber frame. That makes it kind of fragile. Sure, it might be able to bounce a bird off it..but what I have trouble believing is that he could have survived the crash(Edge to Survive Certain Death!). Now, the Joker also used Edge to survive certain Death(how ELSE can a gatling gun and all those missles and rockets have missed?)

However, you take a look at the Citymaster, which is more a light tank that carries people then an APC, and you have a difference. You have thick slabs of armour over most of the thing. This armour most likely has points where it seals up, like on a modern tank. Did you know: the Abrams has a periscope for the driver?He does not really look out the vehicle, but looks at this little screen on his console, and he is behind the thick front slope of armour. With many of the newer APCs, this is also the case. And, considering that a modern APC can take anything short of a missle or explosive device, and the crew and passengers don't get killed...I figure that it is much the same with the Citymaster or any other light armoured vehicle that was actually built as an light armoured vehicle.

Now, you want to talk about the Eurovan with armour plates welded to it...that is a horse of a different colour....

Fortune View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 09:53 AM Post #467
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Just as an aside, in all the time I have been playing and running Shadowrun, I have always envisioned the Citymaster (and Mobmaster) as being basically a heavily modified and armored Winnebago.

Ryu View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 02:25 PM Post #468
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	I´ll try to avoid personal experience with the process :D , but it seems to be fair.

Kremlin KOA

Jan 22 2008, 06:55 PM

Post #469

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin)

You're intentionally ignoring and discounting any intelligent discourse coming from Frank. He, along with many others in this thread have cited the page numbers and rules debunking your Citymaster example, and you still insist it's a perfectly legal example.

OK, then allow me to provide a more reasonable example. Admittedly mine uses up 2 points of edge.

SR team is driving away from job.
Lone Star is chasing in citymaster.
Mr Lucky opens up a small firing port on the riggers whip to use his Mossberg CMDT on the target. SPending precious seconds to aim for the nastiest shot he can get.

now I am using
Cain's Mr Lucky Build with these changes
1: Pistols (semi auto) is Longarms(shotguns)
2: equipped with a couple of shotguns (AM-CMDT is the important one right now)
3: got contact lenses with image magnification, and thermo
4: got GV3 shock pad and gyro for the shotgun

ok this shot starts out with out hero taking 2 aim actions and firing
assuming long range fore the shotgun
full burst (compensated for)
moving vehicle -2 (the third point by what is left of the gyro)
range, compensated for by the image mag
light rain, compensated for by the thermo
called shot -4, +4 to damage
aim +1
now the roll looks like this 22-2-4+1 = 17 dice to roll
now edge can be used for rerolls or for enhanced roll
if you use it for enhanced rolls you get 10 successes on average
if you use it for rerolls you get 9.35 successes on average
going for enhanced rolls
Now the notable part of Cain's example of the citymaster is the extreme difficulty of the citymaster noticing the shot until after the first burst, so defense is inapplicable at this time (if necesary use edge to ensure it :P )
so 10 net successes.
this brings the base damage up to 23, and the armor of the citymaster to 22
so this blast of deer shot, soft lead pellets, has just penetrated.
but how much damage does it do?
average rolls time again. 16 body + 22 armor is 38 total dice to resist
this gives an average of 13 successes
bringing it down to 18 damage
whoops the citymaster only has 16 damage boxes

Ryu View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 07:16 PM Post #470
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	Notice the FAQ, flechette is AP+5 now. So STATISTICALLY you do not penetrate even with edge. (No gasvent on a shotgun either, but that only reduces your still significant chance of a hit). Emotional response: You destroy a car with a combat shotgun on full auto. No problem.

Synner View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 07:50 PM Post #471
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	Kremlin, I'm assuming you don't know the flechette modifiers were errataed right? The modified DV against armor doesn't include autofire, so the modified DV for the CMBT is a baseline 9P(f) + Edge-enhanced 10 successes + 4 DV for a Called Shot (assuming GM approves you can see a vulnerable point on the APC)= your 23, but the Citymaster's Armor is also modified by +5 (due to flechette) to 25. Which means that your Edge-enhanced full auto shotgun burst from the CMBT won't even penetrate, and would require at least 3 more successes to do so - feasible with some luck and those Edge rerolls but unlikely.

Ryu View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 07:59 PM Post #472
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	It should be 14 dice+edge (assuming you get permission on shock pad + gyro). With the errata (sorry, not the FAQ) there is an effective armor of 25 on the Citymaster. Base Value of 9 +4 for Called shot (this is not excluded from counting against hardened armor IIRC) 12 to go. According to Feshy´s dice roller, that has a probability of 23.6%. At edge 8, used for an enhanced roll.

Jhaiisiin

Jan 22 2008, 08:08 PM

Post #473

Running Target

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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

this brings the base damage up to 23, and the armor of the citymaster to 22
so this blast of deer shot, soft lead pellets, has just penetrated.
but how much damage does it do?
average rolls time again. 16 body + 22 armor is 38 total dice to resist
this gives an average of 13 successes
bringing it down to 18 damage

Wait a sec. Base damage = 23, minus 13 successes... that's 10 damage, not 18. Where'd you get 18 from?

Synner

Jan 22 2008, 08:11 PM

Post #474

Runner

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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Jan 22 2008, 08:08 PM)

Wait a sec. Base damage = 23, minus 13 successes... that's 10 damage, not 18. Where'd you get 18 from?

23 is not the base damage value, it is the modified DV to compare with armor (9 +10 successes +4 Called shot bonus). I'm assuming he then factors in either a narrow full auto burst (+9 to DV , -9 modification [apparently compensated] to his shot) to calculate a DV of 32 for Damage Resistance purposes. The Citymaster would then have rolled Body 16 + Armor 22 (in Kremlin's example) = 38 dice.

Jhaiisiin View Member Profile	Jan 22 2008, 08:18 PM Post #475
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,416 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Albuquerque Member No.: 8,334	So basically Kremlin misspoke then, got it. (Course, 13 successes still doesn't = 18 remaining... 32-18 = 19... Either way, the math don't work)

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