 Game level, Why must it be street? |
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 Jan 9 2008, 12:51 PM
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#51
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
And that alone didn't stop them from blowing the crap out of each other. |
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Jan 9 2008, 01:07 PM
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#52
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,028 |
The campaign has been running for just shy of 5 years now, which is around 250+ sessions. Given a karma award of about 3-6 points per session it works out about right. I’m sure there are a lot of people on Dumpshock who don’t have a problem with that kind of game, but there are those who do and that attitude is typified by the statement I quoted above. Personally this is what we enjoy and the challenges are suitable for characters of that level.
In terms of attribute breakdown, we do respect things like racial maximums (with the odd exception). So most of the stats I’m talking about are augmented. For instance the team mage has natural mental stats of 8, 8, 10 – each with a Force 24 increase spell quickened onto them, so they work out around the 30 mark. The ork physad in the party has natural Body 10, adept powers increase that to around 20 and then cyberware gives him around another 8 points for a total of 28. The skills are expensive but not ridiculously so, especially for specialisations. Going from Programming 23 to 24 (assuming you have intelligence of 24) only costs 11 karma (with a mnemonic enhancer). With a metaplanar quest each time you learn a spell you need never pay more than 1 karma per spell. In terms of enemies you are talking about Dragons (although they still wouldn’t dream of challenging a Great to a fight), Winternight, Deus, Bugs, Novatech, Blood Mage Gestalt, Renraku, Ex Pacis, Ordo Maximus and similar high level threats. In fact virtually every threat and then some, dealing with a long term enemy is often referred to as “closing a chapter� for this reason. Threats like Winternight can’t be easily countered by such PCs. Their massive shared potency, high level spirits and awesomely high initiate grade mages/adepts combined with drones sporting heavy weapons can give anyone pause. To give a recent example, the PCs surprised a unit of Jaguar guards and then wiped the entire unit out within a couple of initiative passes. Later when another unit of Jaguars got the drop on them the situation was almost reversed by tactical fighting. At the high end characters tend to appear virtually indestructible, but once their defences crack they tend to fold quickly. Of course dice rolling software is a must for this sort of game, and sometimes it does play slow. But that is why we will wind it up once it gets too slow and too extreme. I’m not saying it is the default best way to play, but it is the way we enjoy. |
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Jan 9 2008, 01:53 PM
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#53
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
So you are playing SR3, else you would be using odd skills (Programming is Software now), and not respect racial modified limits (at all). Plus, you are playing a system that does at some point laugh about minor dice pool increases.
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Jan 9 2008, 02:40 PM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
That is certainly a long-running game. And those numbers do look right for 250+ sessions. Did you have any challenges converting your characters from 3rd to 4th?
Hmmm...either you are missing a stat (Logic, Intuition, Willpower, Charisma), or you are still playing under 3rd rules (Intelligence, Willpower, Charisma). Since you are posting in a 4th edition forum, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you working under 4th ed rules. That having been said, the minimum magic rating to even cast a force 24 spell is going to be 12 with overcasting. So overcasting a force 24 increase willpower spell is going to have a Drain value of 10P ([24/2]-2). VERY dangerous, but survivable, especially with a drain attribute of 10. So now you throw what...probably 15-20 dice (complete guess) for your skill plus 12 dice for magic at that spellcasting test. That's MAYBE 8 hits...a few more if you are really lucky. Sorry hoss, but thats a LOT close to +10 on a attribute than +24. Statistically speaking, you'd need to throw 72 dice at that test to average 24 hits. C'mon man, I'm not trying to beat you up about this, but think about it for a second. There is a reason why myself and others find your numbers hard to believe. And in my person experience, incredibly inflated numbers is a sign of players who disregard the rules either because they don't read carefully enough to understand them, or they aren't mature enough to understand why there are rules in the first place. I apologize if I mislabeled you, but you still haven't provided enough evidence to show that you aren't one or the other.
Well, that's a problem. Page 73 in the BBB, on the chart at the top of the page indicates that the maxium natural body rating for an Ork is 9, not 10. That means that without any augmentation, magical or otherwise, an Ork cannot have a body higher than 9. So this character has already broken a rule.
Whew...that's a tall order. Increase Body +10 is gonna cost 10 power points and require a minimum magic attribute of 10. Seems like an inefficient use of all those power points, and a ton of Karma to boot.
Hmmm...Titanium Bone Lacing plus Dermal Plating 3 gives +6 to body. I suppose you could throw on some cyber limbs for another +2. But that bites pretty deeply into your essence...and even with delta ware, you are going to be losing some points in magic. I don't have the time to run all the math, but the "28 Body" thing is highly suspect.
So you've completely disregarded the hard cap of 7 for skills. Not a total shock, as many people on these boards have done so. But your math is wrong. First off, in 4th ed a Mnemonic Enhancer doesn't reduce the karma cost for improving skills. Secondly, improving a skill from 23 to 24 actually costs 48 karma. In fact, assuming that character started the game with a skill rating of seven, the karma costs to raise it all the way to 24 are as follows: 7 to 8: 16 karma 8 to 9: 18 karma 9 to 10: 20 karma 10 to 11: 22 karma 11 to 12: 24 karma 12 to 13: 26 karma 13 to 14: 28 karma 14 to 15: 30 karma 15 to 16: 32 karma 16 to 17: 34 karma 17 to 18: 36 karma 18 to 19: 38 karma 19 to 20: 40 karma 20 to 21: 42 karma 21 to 22: 44 karma 22 to 23: 46 karma 23 to 24: 48 karma For a grand total of: 544 karma. That's about two thirds of a character's entire earned karma, based on the numbers you've given. See, I'm not picking on you...but the numbers you are putting out there just don't add up. This sort of thing does bring up a good point. For everyone out there, what do character numbers mean to you in terms of game level? Do dicepools of 4 - 6 mean a Street Level game, 6 - 10 = starting runners, 10 - 14 = professional runners? Or do the numbers mean something different to you? I'd like to know the what and why. |
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Jan 9 2008, 03:33 PM
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#55
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Again, everything points to him playing SR3.
I would judge a chars level from DP sizes, but the exact ranges vary by skill type. A dedicated character will have a good natural attribute (4+), good skill (3+), and good equipment and augmentations (if applicable). Barely fitting that description is street level for the given char type. Being on the top end (high, augmented attributes; extreme skill; best ware money can buy; in all required areas) is Prime Runner country. While you can build one-trick-ponies easily at 400 BP, those usually will not fit into the campaign, and look lacking from an internal build-logic POV. They tend to remind me of SR2 skillsets. |
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Jan 9 2008, 03:36 PM
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#56
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
If I were to aim for a small fish in a big pond low level ganger or mafioso or what have you game, then I would aim for specialized dicepools to hit about 10 or 12 at the upwards limit and for things they know ok to be 6-8 and everything else in the 3-6 range if they can do it at all.
Normal starting game for us is with runners who are relatively unknown, but have either had a mediocre record in Seattle, but been there for awhile or someone who was a pretty medium fish in a small pond someone else in the world who came to wherever we held the game for some reason. Specialized dice pools- if they have a specialization- usually cap out at 14-16 with the exception of damage resistance of course things they are skilled at are in the 8-12 range and they can usually throw 6+ dice at anything they aren't defaulting on. I plan on running a high powered game for a few weeks this coming summer and it will be kind of crazy with the runners either being prodigies or very established as some of the best in the world in their niche, I expect specialized dice pools to be in the high twenties to mid thirties, things they are professional with but not their personal bailiwick to be about 18-22, and non defaulting to be in the low teens. We are currently using Frank's char gen rules, as I have a small team and no one wants to play a hacker, they just purchase matrix support/information instead of having a teammate get it. The low level game would probably be 300-340 BP not sure which with 1-3 "karma"(effectively BP under Frank's advancement rules) a run with most runs being short and gritty. Middle game we are playing now is 400 BP and I haven't given out "karma" awards yet though we are 3 sessions in because they are still only on Day 2 of the campaign and haven't had the time to spend any and want me to just give it to them when they can use it. Probably will finish this Saturday or next their first run, and they will total out about 6(already earned)-14(maximum) "karma" from it depending on how well they succeed. High end game will probably be short enough to not really give out karma, but will be 400BP with somewhere in the vicinity of 250 Common Sense Points(credits to Fistandantilus3.0- CSP are effectively karma selectively for knowledge language skills) and 500 "karma" to spend to advance their characters. If you care, Money for the low level game would probably be about 1000 per runner per month to start, and scale up relatively quickly to afford low then medium and after about 6 months playtime(24 sessions or so) either high lifestyle or other luxuries. Medium they get about 5k a run, but that scales depending upon performance, they get a rep for doing well they can look for better paying work. They do poorly the next offer will be lower. High... money won't really be too much of a factor. Probably start them off with about 4 million in gear and an expense account. That's how I roll.(literally) Chris |
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Jan 9 2008, 04:10 PM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,009 Joined: 25-September 06 From: Paris, France Member No.: 9,466 |
To answer the OP question, I'd say it's because of 3 main factors:
1. Shadowrun is still considered as a cyberpunk game. Cyberpunk is rarely about superheroes saving the world. So people drawn by Shadowrun because of the cyberpunk aspect will tend to look for a gritty setting and street-level characters instead of epic stories. Same reason why you don't want to play a weak human in Exalted, Feng-Shui or 7th Sea which are designed for epic/cinematographic games. 2. Realistic high-level running requires more than big dice pools. When you're in the same league as great dragons or megacorps CEO, both players and GM need to have really cunning plans, using each and every available resources to the max... And that's not very easy to do. Failing to do that, an epic SR game would be extremely ridiculous. 3. Starting low helps to get comfortable with the character and setting, as well as allowing the character to progress far more easily. ---- I think 1 explains why most people will prefer Street level games and will frown upon people aiming for epic games while 2 explains why they will make fun of those who play epic-level games, or games with epic levels characters. |
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Jan 9 2008, 05:09 PM
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#58
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...there is also a danger inherent in starting a high powered campaign in that some players like to watch their characters develop and grow from the beginning. Starting off "big and scary" from the get go can take that element away and leave the players feeling their characters do not mean as much. This is particularly true when dealing with a newer group of players as I experienced in the recent run of my RiS campaign. The previous time I ran of the campaign was with a group whom I had gamed with for some time (one of whom since my college days). Considering they had a lot of experience playing characters who made it into the 200 - 300 karma range, starting off on such an intricate and difficult mission was not as daunting.
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Jan 9 2008, 05:15 PM
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#59
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,028 |
As most posters figured out, I am playing SR3. With a possible view to moving to SR4 in the near future, which is why I am to be located in this forum. The fact that we’ve been playing for 5 years should also have given the system away, although it feels like SR4 came out 5 years ago now! We have converted the characters to SR4 using the published guidelines, but so far have only used them (and the SR4 system) inside the metaplanes – which we will probably revisit shortly.
The main challenges in conversion revolved around things that had been done in SR3 that got scrapped in SR4. For example, the adept with the attuned weapon focus, which isn’t allowed in SR4. He switched attunement to his gun instead. The shaman magician adept who loved using spirits (especially for channelling) was in a bit of a spin as well, as he still wanted to channel and use spirits in combat. Eventually he settled on channelling. The shapeshifter was also something we had to houserule, but that didn’t take much work. Everything else worked out not too badly… we did find that the conversion left our mages much more powerful, as despite their vast skills and magic attributes in SR3 they were generally limited by the force they had learned the spells at and the time taken to upgrade them all – whilst in SR4 they could go straight up to ludicrous force spells! I won’t go back over most of the points TheOneRonin goes into, as in light of my SR3 revelation it can generally be accepted my previous statements are correct for the most part. Quickened spell on the mage seemed to be a particular bone of contention, so I shall explain how such dice pools were obtained. Ritual sorcery. A vast pool of dice can be easily put together with a relatively small ritual group of powerful individuals who have learned these augmentation spells for mutual benefit. Throwing 100+ dice and a hefty karma pool at problems like how to get 48 successes against TN 10 tends to result in success. This is something I haven’t completely went over in SR4 yet, but Great Ritual appears to allow for some impressive feats. |
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Jan 9 2008, 05:18 PM
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#60
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Target Group: Members Posts: 54 Joined: 28-January 05 Member No.: 7,028 |
Given the chat about starting off low level. I should probably point out that these characters started under SR3 using the sum to 10 system. As we had just came out of a long campaign a year earlier we decided to start with the equivalent of 50 karma or so expenditure. They followed all normal starting character requirements and the highest skill was around 6.
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Jan 9 2008, 05:35 PM
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#61
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, it never does, anywhere. But it's a place to start from that isn't zero. |
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Jan 9 2008, 07:07 PM
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#62
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
No, the people who created the Taliban existed in 1987, just as the people who created the Nazis existed in 1918. The Taliban didn't exist in 1987 any more than the Nazi's existed in 1918. The Taliban essentially bootstrapped themselves from a bunch of pissed off young religious students with some ISI training mixed with some ex-Mujahideen (from the ISI's favored branch of fanatics) when they rolled in to get rid of a well hated local warlord and won. The ISI was impressed and provided money, guns and recruits from other religious schools; which turned it into a mass movement. The general message of the Taliban was initially received well by most of Afghanistan, and for those parts were it wasn't, the the ISI provided units of regular Pakistani troops "on leave" to help "spread the word". |
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Jan 9 2008, 08:02 PM
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#63
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
kzt, that is not a universally agreed upon origin for our favorite group of Pashtun religious zealots. But this particular argument is badly off topic, and I fear that we shall never get each other to accept our favorite conspiracy theories, nor should we have to.
I believe we've accomplished all we can, and I am no longer participating. -Frank |
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Jan 9 2008, 09:13 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Actually, it's a relatively popular theory of international relations that "no two democracies have ever gone to war with each other" (at least this is what I was taught at American University when I was studying IR theory--I won't claim to be in the field myself). I'd take serious issue with it on the grounds that there's never been a true "democracy" (even Athens wasn't), but that leaves the door open for some hypothetical world where there were two of them, where it might actually stop them from bombing each other. A theory that I got more of a kick out of was that IR theorists used to say no two countries with a McDonald's had ever gone to war with each other. We literally shot a hole in that theory when we started bombing Serbia. I've heard from people that one of the buildings that got caught in collateral damage was, of course, the McDonalds. I don't know if that's true or not, but it leads to why this is all on topic (at least in my opinion)... This world is a dark place where absurd things happen. Ignoring the fact that IR theorists work corporate establishments into their theories, and actually make those theories stick better than the guys that based their theories on democracy; ignoring the fact that NATO forces may have blown up a freezer full of Happy Meals; there's still the idea that there's countries in this world where people have things like McDonald's to distract them from the brutal dictatorships they're living under. That right there turns the happy, clean, suburban things in my life into things that remind me of, well, Slobodon Milosevic. Way to go, world. So when I want to play a game that makes me feel better, I can't retreat to some happy, non-dark fantasy world, because at this point, I'm just going to see that as fake and empty. If I'm playing in a "dark" setting, I can at least pretend there's ways to be a total badass in a dark world, which is handy, because the way I see it, that's the type of world I live in. |
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Jan 9 2008, 09:19 PM
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#65
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
notice how being a democracy does not stop america from declaring war on basically the whole world?
so why should it stop one democracy from declaring war on other democracies? granted, it is easier to wage war if you get to decide from the top down without even having to bother with an alibi or something like that . . but if the democracy actualy agrees for once and should it be just that going to war against their neighbour then it happens . . |
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Jan 9 2008, 09:27 PM
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#66
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
We shot a hole in it when we invaded Panama. And before that when we sent troops into El Salvador. It's a theory batted around for humor value, not because there's any truth in it. The United States has itself gone to war with several countries which have MacDonalds. India and Pakistan both have MacDonalds. Israel and Lebanon both have MacDonalds. Look how well that's turning out. -Frank |
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Jan 9 2008, 09:29 PM
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#67
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
didn't korea and vietnam have McDonalds too?
and i am not really sure if there allready was an McDonalds in Germany when the brown shit hit the fan . . |
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Jan 9 2008, 09:37 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
Sometimes that's the best thing left to say, and sometimes it demonstrates one's commitment even more strongly than trying for the last word does. (I don't have source that I particularly trust on the factual issue in question, so I have little to add, myself.) As for the element that's relevant to the OP, I find the distinction between rescuing trains when they jump the tracks, vs. building a guard rail, a useful one for appropriate PC challenges. If Superman builds guard rails all over Metropolis and trains no longer jump the tracks, and also changes the economy so that *everyone* switches from crime to a productive, ethical, legal job, then playing Superman as an adventuring PC just lost its stock story material. Although there's still Mr. Mplztxpwnzrkthksbai. |
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Jan 9 2008, 09:41 PM
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#69
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No. The Republic of Korea has one now, but not during the Korean War. Vietnam still doesn't. Because the internet has nothing better to do than solve these quandaries, there is actually a page devoted just to figuring out which countries do or do not have a MacDonalds. It is Here. It even has the establishment dates so you can determine whether wars happened before or afterwards. The Falkland Island war, for example, happened before Argentina got a franchise. But the second Israel-Lebanon war happened after Israel and Lebanon both got a franchise. -Frank |
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Jan 9 2008, 10:04 PM
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#70
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
The vogue for dark, anti-heroes is because we can no longer fin untainted honesty and light believable? That's a bleak theory that didn't occur to me. |
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Jan 9 2008, 10:10 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Find a governmental bureaucracy and start working for it. Or meet a girl. Then you'll be in the right kind of hell to see where I'm coming from :) |
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Jan 9 2008, 10:55 PM
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#72
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The United States of America is not a democracy. |
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Jan 9 2008, 10:56 PM
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#73
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
*toothy Troll-Grin*
i like your way of thinking Fortune *gg* ----------------------------------------------- http://www.otakyasha.de/nsrcg.zip < = latest version including german .dat files NSRCG http://de.geocities.com/nekekami_the_ghost/RC2SWF.swf < = RunCreator2, shockave flash based little tool for quick creation of runs . . in german only i am afraid . . |
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Jan 9 2008, 11:14 PM
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#74
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I wasn't kidding. IIRC, it is technically a republic, not a democracy. :)
As an aside, though I am not, and never have been an American, I really hate America-bashing when it is done purely for the sake of bashing America, as is the current popular practice. |
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Jan 9 2008, 11:57 PM
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#75
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...[/derail]
....not that I haven't been guilty of derails myself, but extended off topic heated political discussion usually spawns warnings from the mods followed by thread shutdown. I actually found the OT of this thread rather interesting. |
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