 Man & Machine Rerelease |
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 Nov 28 2003, 08:41 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 17-June 02 From: Concord University, Athens, WV Member No.: 2,880  |
Quick question.
My mom ordered a set of Shadowrun books online as a Christmas gift (half from Stiggybaby and half from FRPgames), and according to FRP, M&M is a November preorder. Seeing as how November is almost over already, could anyone say when that should be out? |
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Nov 28 2003, 09:14 PM
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#2
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
My understanding is that it's still at the printers - FanPro is trying a different printer with this book.
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Dec 24 2003, 04:01 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677 |
"Adam, is there anything new on the status of the M&M rerelease? My mom has been bothering me to write FRP and ask why the books are late even though I already explained the printer thing to her. I'm having Charlie post this because I can't reach the forums for some reason."
-Sahandrian Posted for Sahandrian by Phaeton. |
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Dec 24 2003, 04:03 AM
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#4
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You can find the errata for the upcoming re-release here. :)
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Dec 24 2003, 04:23 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677 |
Actually, Fortune, he wanted info that the latest revision has been shipped from the printers. :D |
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Dec 24 2003, 05:29 AM
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#6
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes I know. As Adam has said, it is supposedly on the way. I just thought it might be of some interest to people to know what kind of changes are being included.
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Dec 24 2003, 05:42 AM
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#7
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
your mom is so cool.
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Dec 24 2003, 02:41 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 312 Joined: 9-October 02 Member No.: 3,430 |
Go mom Go!!!!
My mom used to do stuff like that all the time. She said any money spent on ANY book is never a waste of money. BTW Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!!! |
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Dec 24 2003, 03:20 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Looks like they didn't a thing about bioware stress. Some light levels are still lethal or crippling, then.
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Dec 24 2003, 05:08 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
well yeah, its supposed to be - that's what happens when an internal organ fails!
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Dec 24 2003, 06:50 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
I didn't say "fails," I said light stress. As in, equivalent to minor upset in the organ's functioning. "Deadly" stress is organ failure, but even light stress can kill and, worse, it's completely irreparable. When I asked Fanpro about it, I was told light stress was not supposed to be so dangerous. An the danger of light stress on bioware is funny, because you can be blasted down to a stump with no arms and legs, with massive attribute stress on all attribute stress, and SR's medical technology can heal you back to full health with no essence loss. Limbs and organs can be replaced, attribute stress undone... But once bioware is stressed, it is permanently stressed, irreparably stressed, and that one point of stress can kill you. Light stress on a platelet factory can give a stroke a day, while light stress on toxin extractors will leave you an osteoporotic cripple. It would've taken a 3-word errata to fix that problem, too. |
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Dec 24 2003, 06:58 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
What the hell? In my book lightly stressed platelet factories makes your fingers and feet cold sometimes. A lightly stressed toxin extractor means you have to take a vitamin once in a while. Are you reading the correct sections? |
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Dec 24 2003, 07:30 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Yeah, let's think about this:
Such an innocent little statement, neh? The "only" problem from light stress on platelet factories is that your hands get cold and tingle? First, do you know how bad is your circulation if you have body part temperature drops and anoxia to the extent your nerves tingle? I mean, this is so bad that it's equivalent to sleeping on your limb and shutting off blood flow, like a tourniquet. Second, if you're having clogged-up capillaries in your hands and feet, not to mention reduction in flows to those areas, do you really think your brain will be spared? Imagine your brain suffering blood flow reductions adequate to cause "cold extremities and tingling sensations." And do you really think those effects will happen without clots forming? How long do you think it'll be for someone suffering from "cold extremities and tingling sensations" in their limbs due to over active platelet production to suffer a stroke? Re: Vitamins. Sure, vitamins will fix the problem of toxin extractors right quick. The problem is, you have to know about it first. Vitamin deficiencies are horribly insidious effects. You don't know you have vitamin-C deficiencies until casual collisions in crowded places cause nose bleeds; you don't know you have calcium deficiencies until your arm bones crack in a simple practice session of karate; etc. This is how healthy young women end up with osteoporosis when they're in their 20s - they don't realize their low-calorie, high-exercise regimes are crippling them. (See: Female Athlete Triad.) There's no pain, no deprivation, no urge to suddenly start taking corrective actions. The few runners that might get regular blood work checks or have biomonitors with diagnostic subprocessors might realize what their toxin extractors are malfunctioning, but most vitamin deficiencies are so damn insidious you never know they're happening until they've had their effects. |
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Dec 24 2003, 08:17 PM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I think that's a pretty extreme extrapolation. I don't think that "poor circulation" requires errata to state "this poor circulation does NOT cause you to have a stroke every single day", or that vitamin deficiencies need to be explicity not-completely-debilitating. Hell, I get cold hands and feet a lot and tingly sensations if I've been lazily laying around. I've never had a stroke.
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Dec 24 2003, 08:26 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
You've never had tingly sensations due to platelet-thickened blood, have you? That's an entirely different cause behind numbness and tingling than sitting on a limb and locally cutting off circulation. Platelet overproduction is a system-wide, clog-your-hands, clog-your-brains problem. Logically, you cannot limit tingling and numbness due to platelet overproduction to just your hands and feet - there's no "extreme" in that extrapolation, just basic knowledge of the circulatory system. The errata that would eliminate the concerns had nothing to do with touching on the effects of bioware stress, but rather would enable the last point of bioware stress to be removed. It was so simple, just 3 bloody words:
Easy fix. Simple fix. No need to alter existing stress rules at all, no need to touch all those stress effects, just add 3 little words, and the long-term effects of light bioware stress are no longer cause for concern. |
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Dec 24 2003, 09:37 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Well, regardless of how malfunctioning platelet factories would really work ( :S ), they don't cause strokes in the game and thus don't really warrant a fix. Errata is there to correct printing errors or fix significant problems with the game. Nobody has people with lightly-stressed platelet factories roll for stroke every game day. It's not a problem that needs correcting.
If this has actually been occuring in your game then I suggest you correct the problem at its source: stop playing light stress effects so dangerously. Changing a fundamental fact about bioware (that damaged and used bioware is inferior to new bioware) isn't the solution. It doesn't even solve your stroke problem! :) |
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Dec 24 2003, 09:48 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Yes, they do. The game rules very clearly establish that a platelet factory with light stress sludges up the blood so badly that tingling and reduced temperatures occur in the extremities. The brain is thus directly endangered.
Not directly, no, but the inability to fix bioware's last stress point when SR's medical technology can work miracles is ludicrous. It's just a 3-word patch to get rid of the issue - allow bioware to be fixed completely, problem goes away.
The rules established how dangerous light stress is in some items of bioware; you can ignore all those entries if you want, but I'm not. Instead, if I'm going to alter rules, I'm not going to alter a dozen different bioware stress entries, I'm going to tack on 3 simple words to one sentence and allow bioware stress to be completely repaired.
Wrong. If you are able to heal the last stress point on bioware, you don't have to suffer its ill effects long enough for it to be a problem. In the case of the platelet factory, you wouldn't be pumping sludge for blood long enough (before it's fixed) for there to be a significant risk of strokes. |
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Dec 24 2003, 09:55 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Does it actually happen in your game?
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Dec 24 2003, 10:18 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Once with platelet factory: the PC had blackouts and saw stars due to poor blood flow in the brain (no strokes). The platelet factory was repaired, removing the last stress point. Once with nephritic screen, causing vitamin-C deficiencies (scurvy). Again, the nephritic screen was simply repaired of its last stress point. Since then, no one's taken platelet factory again (no bioware-heavy types for any of the SR GMs IMG) and bioware stress is checked for whenever any PC takes deadly damage, so no further bioware stress side effect incidents have cropped up. But that all depends on bending the rules one way or the other: either ignore stress effects or ignore the inability to repair the last point of bioware stress. |
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Dec 24 2003, 11:09 PM
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#20
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
man, this is like reading matrix threads about encryption and anti pirate security :)
its a game for crying out loud! half the stuff in it would never have hit the street legaly or not if there where any big risk in killing someone but in SR it does over and over... |
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Dec 25 2003, 12:24 AM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
This isn't quite like the danger in retractable spurs (beware spontaneous ejection while scratching your groin or chin). In a game where you can completely heal mangled limbs and organs, the only way to fix bioware costing tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands of nuyen) is to just replace it with a new piece, and for problems that are supposed to be minor ("light" stress, fer chrissakes) but turn out to be very dangerous. And the fix is to add 3 words to one sentence, cross-referencing existing trauma surgery rules. |
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Dec 25 2003, 01:29 AM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Suggestion: Write those three words in your copy and call it a 'house rule'. Problem solved. Everyone can be friends again. :)
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Dec 25 2003, 02:23 AM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Already done in my book. Actually, I added 5 words; "...without Trauma surgery or Magic." :) |
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Dec 25 2003, 04:51 AM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It'd still be nice if they fixed it officially. Then again, so many other problems with the system hang around that this one doesn't stand out a whole lot.
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Dec 25 2003, 08:01 AM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
In that case I'd wager that no character has ever had an actual stroke from a lightly-stressed platelet factory implant in the history of Shadowrun. As such, it's not really a problem for anyone :) On repairing that last point, it's really unnecessary in my games; light stress never has a tangible game-mechanics penalty in the books and I don't make any up. It's just RP fodder as the character limbers up before a run or takes an advil or hurls in the toilet or whatever, reminiscing about that time he took a hit to the stomach and had to stop eating live rats for a few days. It's plenty fun. |
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