 Game Level why must it be Street II?, puttting the train on the right track |
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 Jan 16 2008, 05:34 AM
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#26
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Grand Master of Run-Fu  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178  |
*Please* don't tell me that you subscribe to the "Making gimped characters is a sign of a real roleplayer" school of thought. Complex character interaction is a function of the player, not the character or power level. A munchkin will munchkinize out whatever he's handed. A good roleplayer will deal with whatever hje gets, and roleplay just as well. Both could have twenty-page backstories, but in game, an experienced roleplayer will shine. So, it boils down to genre, and how well the rules support that genre. Without derailing this thread, I'll point out again that the SR4 book is supposed to portray a world on the grittier, darker, more realistic side of things; yet has massively overpowering, cinematic ,"nothing is impossible" rolls baked into the core mechanic. You can neither avoid the street nor the epic. |
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Jan 16 2008, 06:22 AM
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#27
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Although I could be wrong, if Method said what I think Method said then I agree, characters that have weaknesses and fears are more interesting then characters that don't have either, and I personally don't see how that translates to "gimping" a character, I don't think anyone is talking about making a pure Mage with no ability to resist drain or a street sam who spent all of her Essense on worthless cyber and has to default when shooting...
*Edit* However I don't necessarily disagree with what you said either Cain, I just get a little testy when people seem to think that suggesting that having flawed characters is the same as gimping them in some kind of "elite roleplayer" fashion. |
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Jan 16 2008, 06:24 AM
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#28
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
I am by no means saying that character has to be "gimped" in terms of game mechanics. I mean to use the term "character flaw" in the literary sense, as in "internal conflict". I personally just don't enjoy roleplaying characters that are so "professional" that they never make mistakes, or always know the proper course of action, or never get anxious or afraid about the prospect of failure, etc, etc. As you said, SR is supposed to portray "a world on the grittier, darker, more realistic side of things" and I think imperfect characters define "gritty". Take Batman as an example of the quintessential antihero. Everyone can agree that Batman regularly hands people their asses to wear as hats because he's a bad mofo. But compare the Adam West version to Christian Bale version. Thematically, which would fit better in SR? Batman wouldn't be nearly so bad ass if there wasn't a dark, conflicted side to him right? :grinbig: In terms of scope, Batman's exploits are pretty epic, but the driving force behind his character is the murder of his parents (plain old "street level" violence), which to me illustrates that most people can relate to a character better if his/her driving force is something they can understand on an intuitive level. I'm not saying things like "political intrigue" and "sweeping world events" don't have a place in SR. I just don't think they make good motivators for a character. So I guess in a long winded sort of way, I'm saying exactly the opposite. I think its much harder to RP an epic character well... |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:15 AM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I don't get why people think it's one or the other, though. Whatever happened to the good old default level? A character who isn't in a low-powered street level campaign isn't automatically "epic".
Besides, you are also combining high-powered campaigns with hard-edged professional ones. Some people do play ultra-tough characters who are also very tactically cunning. But there are also a lot of ultra-tough characters who couldn't go to McHughes for a soyburger without it turning into a bloodbath. And most characters will be flawed - they will either be less than optimal in their specialty, or lacking in other areas. And nearly everyone seems to take at least some points in negative qualities. Given the limits of SR4 char-gen, most characters will have plenty of flaws, on the build point level. As far as flaws in the character background, that depends more on the player than on the power level of the game. A min-maxer won't suddenly make a character with glaring weaknesses in a low-powered game, and a roleplayer will give appropriate flaws to a character even in a high-powered game. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:28 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
What is "Street"? What is "Epic"?
This is Shadowrun. It does not matter your origins, when all is said and done you are a deniable assett. You could be working for the Emperor Yasuhito in Neo-Tokyo doing things that he cannot openly dirty his hands on, or be a "prime runner" in Seattle getting all the good jobs. Either way, though, you are just one betrayal away from being sold for scrap or being chopped up by an Organ-legger for Ghoul Chow. It does not matter how big you get, there is always someone bigger. And that is the thing to always remember: The higher the climb, the harder the fall. Basicly: no matter what the "level" of the game, you are still someone's pawn in a much larger game that even YOU d not necessarily even know is being played. Even your Johnson is a pawn. In fact, I would generally go so far as to say that even the Corp CEOs and the Corp Court are just pawns. I tend to think that the Great Dragons are teh REAL movers and shakers, and that EVERYTHING is just a pawn in their games. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:54 AM
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#31
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
What I like is how many people expressed that they want to be in "the middle" - neither too big nor too small. Of course, on close examination I am virtually positive that one man't too big is another's too small. Everyone likes their personal preferences, and things which are bigger or smaller than their preferences are not their favorites.
Everyone's favorite games fall in the middle of what it is that they like the most. It's axiomatic and unhelpful. -Frank |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:56 AM
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#32
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The problem is that characters don't help make a game gritty. Players do. Roleplaying is up to the player, not the collection of numbers that define a character's abilities. This is why I object to "street level" campaigns so much; it's not a vehicle for better roleplay. What makes a game street or epic (or both) is the shared vision of the GM and character players. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:59 AM
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#33
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
??? Glyph: At what point did I say the two were mutually exclusive? My goal was to give one (perfectly valid) reason why some prefer "street level" campaigns- i.e. because in a lot of ways its easier to relate to your character and really explore what its like to live in the dark gritty world of SR as it is presented. Thats really all I am saying. Really. Thats all. :) |
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Jan 16 2008, 08:06 AM
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#34
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
I think in a lot of ways we agree, but we are coming at it from two different angles. Nothing I am talking about can be found as a number on a sheet. Its about how the player relates to the character and explores the world they live in. And to be perfectly clear, I have nothing against "epic" or "street" or "epic-street". I've played in, GMed and enjoyed all of the above. |
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Jan 16 2008, 08:24 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 573 Joined: 17-September 07 Member No.: 13,319 |
And then Goldilocks played in the 200 BP campaign, in which the PCs could rarely walk a kilometer without getting threatened by cops or rival gangers or corpsec, any of which might frag them with ease, and the sammie with the AK-97 was saving up for a FN HAR, and it was Too Small. For her.
And then Goldilocks played in the 400 BP+100 Karma campaign, in which the pornomancer routinely persuaded guards to shoot themselves after handing over the passwords, and the mage routinely tossed Force 20 Stunballs, and the sammie would split dicepools while two-gunning her prototype burst-fire electrolaser pistols (with -12 to bypass full body armor) for MASSIVE BATTLE DAMAGE on multiple targets, and they kept the head of Lofwyr in the trophy case next to the Wand of Orcus... and it was Too Big. For her. And then Goldilocks came to the Buddha, who advised her that to follow the Middle Way, and she found that ending each game session with "So, what was fun and what should we do differently next time?" might be a useful practice for fine-tuning a campaign that was Just Right. For her. |
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Jan 16 2008, 09:01 AM
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#36
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I would love to see an example of a 400BP + 100 Karma Mage that can come anywhere near casting a Force 20 anything ... even once, let alone routinely. |
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Jan 16 2008, 11:44 AM
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#37
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Max. natural magic is 8 (or 9 if 100 karma are a loose guidline), so "anywhere close" should be force 16 (no main book here right now, might use a power focus for the rest).
Taking drain: Willpower+Logic on an elf. Some softcap of 13 dice for drain. Add a spell category focus, the best you can get. "Safe" drain capacity of 6-7, more if drain is accepted. Force 16 has a base drain of 8, so many a spell is doable. Yet, we are a far shot from force 20. (@Riley37: I got the point you where trying to make, this is just to show where 400 BP+some karma can end) |
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Jan 16 2008, 12:19 PM
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#38
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
Hmm...so whats middle to me... Number-wise, 400-450 BPs. up to but under 500 isn't still too powerful...500+ is where you can basically make anything you want practically and never worry about points.350-400 is sorta ''lower class'', i guess you can say, under 350 and you start getting more to street level. Availability wise, well..we never use it, but if we did...arg, i dont even know the ratings well enough to say. But id probably go by gear...i could see a low end ganger with a stolen, low end battered commlink and yeah, even a heavy pistol(they arent that expensive and they are plentiful enough), but anything over an SMG might be more difficult to get(save for the classic sawed off or something). Bats, knives, the like would be abound. Basically, anything that would be easy to get. But to us, availability just gets in the way of fun by adding micromanaging to worry about, so we ditch it. And our game's havn't suffered unbalance at all, making me believe it's a highly opitional rule. ( Character flaws...well, ALL characters can have them. You could easily play a 2 dimentional gutterpunk with no flaws whatsoever. And you could play a heavily 3-d superassassin with lots of backstory. Game level has NOTHING to do with this, IMO. Basically...i guess middle ground(power level) means to me ''professional characters with experience who still have to face bigger sharks out there, but aren't being ground into the dirt every five seconds'' if that makes any sense. Of course, one could play a high-powered but still street level campaign. Again, street can be a description, not a power level. It just seems that gimped characters come along with the street territory in alot of people's eyes in my experience. See, high level campaigns, IMO; come with an almost similar flaw to low level. The characters, rather than being wimps dragged around...are so powerful that a LOT of people are gunning for them. You get little rest in a high-power, like you get little rest in a low power. And when you're rolling 24+ dice for stuff, and the enemies are rolling 24+ dice, people die fast, and alot, and on both sides. GMs also tend to be less forgiving in a high level campaign than a low level(this is a slight peeve i have, to be honest....its like the GM is punishing the people for wanting to play something slick and pro, and rewarding them for playing gutterpunks, and i don't believe in that because neither is good or bad behaviour Matching the power level to the PCs is natural and expected...punishing is not.). But in high level campaigns...they ARE naturally dangerous. When you are dealing with high level enemies, no matter how good you are, there will be trouble. And im not talking GDs and IE's at every corner, im talking about people with as many, or more resources than them, lots of contacts, and the like. Sure, for high level, if you want to challenge PCs, you need to send people after them that may end up waxing them...or the other way around. PCs on the other hand can wax most of the book characters of professional rating 3 and under. Again, there is something to balance. Now, starting as a pro but still refining skills and working up to that high level mark is alot of fun for me, but the longer im in the middle, the longer i tend to be more interested. (many times, the high level plotlines end up losing my interest after a long while.) I dunno. maybe im just different in my tastes than alot of folks. |
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Jan 16 2008, 01:37 PM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Power Foci don't add to Force (or Magic rating) in any way. Only to the Dice Pool of tests that involve the Magic Attribute.
Which was my point. ;) :D |
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Jan 16 2008, 02:28 PM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I'm guilty of this. The less points you give me, the more I min-max. Unless you flat out give me a character sheet to play, I'm going to try and create the character I want to play. Unfortunately skills are expensive, I hate one trick ponies, love Awakened characters and I avoid paying bps for dice totals that don't escape the "Why did you even bother?" threshold of below 6. It's really a rather bad combo of traits for low powered games. On the other hand, give me enough points to do whatever my character's particular shtick is rather well and I start tossing around the rest of the points without bothering with things like also trying to stick in a ridiculous initiative pool. |
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Jan 16 2008, 03:53 PM
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#41
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
I share those traits. Most runners should have athletics and influence, but if you are forced to start with charisma 2, about the only level of influence that will accomplish something is 4. The thing I hate most about the difference between cost systems for chargen and later improvement is that it rewards the min/maxing part of my soul. The less BP i have, the more important it gets to "earn" some points back, to sooner reach an acceptable level of skill. Once I have what I deem necessary (the second IP is not among those things), I broaden the skillset.
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Jan 16 2008, 04:22 PM
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#42
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Gracie (#97) my Met2000 Merc (3rd ed) in a High Power campaign was a lot of fun to roleplay. As a combatant she was scary, able to hold her ground going full lead hose with her Alpha (Dwarf with a 12 Strength). Yeah she was min maxed like hell because the GM wanted over the top characters. However, she also had a couple very nice character flaws. For one she was an orphan so she had a soft spot for stray and abandoned kids. She would take issue with anyone who she saw mistreating a child and then take the poor kid to somewhere safe. These were not even "point generating" flaws just a part of the character's personality. One of her contacts (a buddy level) was a Mother Superior in charge of an orphanage. Not much in the way of legwork help but still an important facet of the character's background. Gracie would also donate a good portion of her receipts to the orphanage and other various children's related causes and check in on the kids she saved to make sure they went to good families. She was a professional in her job (again her MET2000 background), but not a blood thirsty shoot anything that moves killing machine. She also had an uncanny wit which frequently was a source of humor for the group. [edit] ...I'll get to epic level campaigns. political intrigue, and "sweeping world events" a little later as I have to clock in for work. |
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Jan 16 2008, 04:52 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 154 Joined: 3-January 08 From: My Side of the Mirror Member No.: 15,027 |
I tend to like my games to start just below what I'd consider the first real goal for my character. This go's for any system I play. I like to start off with enough power that I'm not gimped, and I like to be able to achieve that goal in a decent amount of time. This gives my character some time to become fleshed out and makes the first real goal so much sweeter when it's accomplished. It's one thing to say, "oh, that tricked out combat drone, I spent years designing and building it", and actually playing the character when he's short a few k nuyen for the last few parts he needs for it. But once I've got a character all built, and feel attached to him, I like to see him progress more into what people would consider "epic" game play. Now that he's all grown up and can cast force 20 fireballs (or whatever) I want him to play with the big boys. And once he's done something suitably epic it's time to start the cycle again. |
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Jan 16 2008, 05:58 PM
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#44
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 |
Yep....same here. Im not against some minmaxing...i think most of us have done/do it to an extent. (im not talking about minmaxing to all hell...just a little here and there to tweak up). But if i only have 300 BPs, ill be minmaxing, yes. If it's done in the one suggested way ive read(cap resources lower...say 25,000 or 50,000, limit the gear to only stuff gangers might get, but allow 200 for Attributes), ill definately be soaking up 200 for Attributes...and try like hell to tweak the skills to get decent dicepools. No, i don't need to roll 27 dice...but even in a low level campaign, id like 6-10. Like you say, under 6 and it begins to get hairy(ive pulled some lucky successes with lesser dice, but its not often.) And yeah, KK, reminded me i have a merc character ive played in a high power weekend shot involving undead(zombie hosing with large guns), big scary stuff, and the like. It was fun, i admit. Now and then it's great, but i couldn't play entire long campaigns like that. My character in the high power was a huge human merc from Poland who looked like a death metal singer, had a 12 augmented Strength since we allowed augmentations to go past the natural modified limits, titanium bone lacing, a level of wired reflexes and a HMG which the GM ruled, after seeing his stats, he could man-port around and go FA with no modifers. We used the Strength lowers Recoil rule in Fields of Fire. He had personality quirks, had his headphones with him to psyche himself up with his death metal before going on a bang-bang mission, and enjoyed telling bad jokes to keep the team's spirits up. Definately wasn't someone i could play all the time, but he's still around, and for those ''huge gun'' weekend one-shots we do every so often, it's a literal blast. (SR4 rules could not begin to convert this guy, however, so he lives on in SR3.) Small tangent, i apologize, but had to make a point that again, any style can be fun with the right GM. |
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Jan 16 2008, 08:18 PM
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#45
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
And then Goldilocks got eaten by three angry piasma. Do not, under any circumstances, take the advise of a slitch who got herself eaten by mutant bears. |
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Jan 16 2008, 08:24 PM
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#46
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Ah thats just it though, playing with lower dicepools doesn't mean limiting Build Points, but then again I like broad characters over specialists. (Of course I also prefer playing with a small group of people over a large one, so generalists don't tend to step on each other's toes as much as they might with a larger group.)
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Jan 16 2008, 09:22 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Playing "street" doesn't necessarily mean the characters are screwed. Just because you started with 200 BP doesn't mean you can "barely walk a kilometer" without being threatened by a cop. Street, epic, or other, opposition levels should always match the PCs, be it through quality, quantity, or a reasonable combination of the two. The street campaign I was in for years had me starting without a gun. But at the same time, because I was unarmed, not many people saw the need to draw a gun on me. Even if they had a sidearm, or even an SMG or assault rifle, that didn't mean they saw the need to gun down some punk that was giving them the finger.
That cuts both ways, too, I bet. If I were playing an epic game, I'd be upset if everything I shot at died twice. Great Dragons would be a little extreme, even for an epic campaign, but if I had the jam to use a missile launcher uber-competently, the helicopters I'm shooting it at should have uber-competent riggers controlling them (assuming that they're the real meat of the session, and not just garnish for a real fight later on). Oh, and Fortune: I'm not saying it was plausible that Aztechnologies fell in the more epic campaign I was in; we were just all in a mood to play mercenaries in the remnants of Aztlan. I triple dare anyone to come up with a better reason for anything at all to happen in SR :) |
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Jan 16 2008, 09:29 PM
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#48
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Fair enough. :) |
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Jan 16 2008, 10:07 PM
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#49
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...@CBB excellent points. Particularly about the threat level. The low power campaign I was in again dealt pretty much with goons and other runner types who were just a slight cut above the PCs. As we earned more Karma the threat level increased, enough to keep us on our toes but not overwhelming. And this was not only done with increasing an individual NPC's power but also by sending a greater number of foes against us. 7 - 8 Yak goons armed with SMGs who don't all stand in a nice tight group so your team's mage can take them out with a single stunball (and who actually use tactics) can still make for a rough encounter.
...@Ravor. A lot of my 400 BP characters tend to be around the 9 - 11 DP range in their main skill areas with a primary skill pool around 13. My Matrix Specialist Violet (#98) does have 15 dice in her general Hacking skill when running in hot mode but we also use the old rule of holding out dice to suppress IC (which she tends to do a lot so as not to trigger an alert). Even the re-engineered KK (#99) is in the 11 - 13 dice range with her combat abilities. Both characters have been able hold their own in their chosen specialties pretty well. |
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Jan 17 2008, 03:32 AM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I wasn't saying that anyone was making them mutually exclusive. I was commenting on the fact that most of the posters were contrasting "street level" games with "epic" games, and I was pointing out that there are games in the middle, too. I guess it's natural to contrast something with the other extreme, but not playing "street" doesn't automatically mean you're toppling megacorporations. I have played, and enjoyed, street level games as well. But such games are best for mature players who have already explored the normal options in the game, and want to try something different. As several posts have already indicated, forcing weakened char-gen rules on the players does not automatically result in better roleplaying. |
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