 Immunity to Normal Weapons, Eratta? |
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 Jan 16 2008, 04:58 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623  |
In the Game level thread some one mentioned that the critter power "Immunity to Normal Weapons" had been updated. Can any one confirm this as I have not found any errata on the power. As it appears in the original hard copy SR4 main book it simply says that the power grants an immunity equal to twice its magic rating. That weapon DV's that come in below this do no harm. It says nothing about adding in extra successes or modifiers for burst or full auto. Any help would be appreciated.
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Jan 16 2008, 05:17 PM
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#2
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Well, the Immunity entry tells us that ItNW works like Hardened Armor, the entry for which tells us to use the modified DV. So really what we're looking for is the section where it says the modifications to DV from burst/auto fire don't count towards the modified DV. I'm looking for that part.
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Jan 16 2008, 05:17 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
There appears to be no errata for the Immunity Power.
Errata 1.5 (the latest) is available here: http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/?p=157 Ther Immunity power appears on p.288 and spills over to p.289, and there is errata for Dual Natured on p287, then Psychokinesis on p290, so there appears to be no errata as of the most recent errata. So the text in your book should be correct. Are you looking for a specific clarification? Can you give an example situation to interpret? |
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Jan 16 2008, 05:19 PM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That would be on page 143 in the autofire rules.
-Frank |
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Jan 16 2008, 05:21 PM
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#5
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Right. There it is. Thanks Frank!
Stormdrake: All sorted out? |
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Jan 16 2008, 05:33 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 23-April 07 From: Aurora, CO Member No.: 11,514 |
slight derail:
Our group found the hardened armor rules to be too wonky... the all or nothing approach did not do well. We instead proposed this idea: when something has hardened armor it gets a number of automatic hits applied to the damage resistance test equal to 1/2 its rating (round UP) the other half of the dice are rolled as normal So far this has worked well for us, vehicles and the like are very tough but do not need rocket launchers (or gunslinger adepts) to scare. Spirits are still a little tough but then again a high force spirit is supposed to be scary. Example: [ Spoiler ] This has led to a more consistent damage soak in our games and does not create those strange variables where when the hardened armor is just exceeded that the vehicle (or whatever) suddenly falls apart into a heap of crap. Thoughts? Edit: spelling |
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Jan 16 2008, 05:44 PM
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#7
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Hardened Armor is another thing that breaks at the high-end. I think your fix is more or less exactly how it should've worked in the first place. It leaves the armor impervious to weak attacks. It makes the armor less impervious to moderate attacks. It makes the armor more effective against strong attacks. So it nicely smooths the destroyed-or-nothing effect which occurs for high hardened armor values. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:15 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 689 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 5,623 |
Just a follow up to this. I ask it because my players will, lol. If the DV + successes are greater than the critters hardened armor rating is the armor then negated or does the critter still get to add all the dice from the hardened armor into its damage resistance rolls? I can't see why it would be negated but figured I would ask.
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Jan 16 2008, 07:20 PM
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#9
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Yeah, if (base DV+net hits) is greater than the hardened armor rating, then the hardened armor is treated exactly like normal armor, and is rolled along with Body to resist (base DV+net hits+autofire modifiers)
edit: Unless you're doing it lunchbox311's way. I think his/her way is a good way and I'll probably start using it, but as with all house rules I recommend you do it "right" and see how it goes before you go fiddling with things. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:20 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
They still get Body + Armor for resistance tests.
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Jan 16 2008, 07:21 PM
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#11
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
The critter still gets to roll its armor even if the DV is greater than it. In fact, if the armor is hardened, that's the only time that the critter needs to roll as the hardened armor will, otherwise, negate the attack!
@lunchbox311 I like that. My way was always to subtract the hardened armor rating from the DV and roll it all making vehicles and hardened critters very, very dangerous, but I think I might play around with your method for a bit and see if I like it better. |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:34 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 23-April 07 From: Aurora, CO Member No.: 11,514 |
We tried the whole hardened armor value as automatic hits during a session but it was crazy. It happened to be a higher end run with the runners dealing with multiple Citymasters. They had access to AV rockets but those still make very small dents in the vehicles (took 3-4 rockets per Citymaster) After that session we decided to use half automatic and half rolled. It is really nice and does not add much overhead to the table (especially if you buy your hits with the leftover dicepool.) @Moon-Hawk: HIS way 8) |
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Jan 16 2008, 07:55 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
I like it...I have spent way too much time scratching my head as my players shot up an armored vehicle. Thinking that 10 hardened armor was safe and then them turning it to swiss cheese in a single IP...the all or nothing aspect really does suck.
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Jan 16 2008, 08:45 PM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I've been doing it like lunchbox's for some time, but not rolling the other half. Made AP very very good, and seemed to work rather well.
But I do like lunchbox's suggestion, seems like it'll make spirits poof a bit less when exposed to high end weaponry. -Frank |
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Jan 16 2008, 08:49 PM
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#15
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
I like it, too. Nice approch, though we shall wait for what Arsenal brings right now.
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Jan 16 2008, 08:55 PM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So, for lunchbox's rules (or those who use a variant) ...
What figure do you use as a base to see if the attack actually bounced? For example, assuming a Force 5 Spirit, would you use 10 (double Force, as in the rules), 5 (its Force, and the base use for 'auto-hits'), or 5 + net hits from the other 5 dice (which I think would be interesting, in that it inserts an unknown element into the equation)? |
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Jan 16 2008, 08:57 PM
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#17
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
I would have used the first, but the last is definitly more interesting.
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Jan 16 2008, 09:14 PM
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#18
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I've always used the first option as well (double Force) mostly because it is indicated in the rules thusly.
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Jan 17 2008, 03:40 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
One thing to remember about spirits and their Immunity to Normal Weapons is that it works like hardened armor against normal attacks, but is negated by magical attacks. So an adept attacking an air spirit with a weapon focus, for example, will do normal damage, and in addition, the air spirit doesn't get any of that "armor" to roll to resist the attack with.
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Jan 17 2008, 04:07 AM
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#20
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Are you sure? I always just assumed that by negating Hardened Armor, it became just "normal" armored.
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Jan 17 2008, 05:25 AM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
Yeah. Immunities are pretty strictly limited. Immunity to fire doesn't do a thing against electrical attacks, so immunity to normal weapons shouldn't do anything to stop magical attacks. Relevant quote from pg. 288, with emphasis:
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Jan 17 2008, 08:01 AM
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#22
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...so this means if the Short One (#99) whacks at a spirit with her WF Katana, it only gets to roll it's effective Body to soak the damage?
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Jan 17 2008, 08:02 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
OOoooooo....Here is a neat little loophole with that: If I have bonelacing, and I punch something with immunity to normal weapons, then, it does not get its immunity, because my hand while, sure, is hitting harder because it has metal nt bone in there, is not a weapon! |
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Jan 17 2008, 08:12 AM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Only if you also possess Killing Hands. A fist, even a fist lined with bone lacing, is still considered a normal weapon, just like it would be if it were a cyberlimb or packing brass knuckles. I think you may have missed the part where it mentions that ItNW applies to pretty much everything non-magical. |
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Jan 17 2008, 10:36 AM
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#25
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes, exactly. Now you get to ask: Why would people have Weapon Focus Katanas? And honestly I still can't answer that. Weapon Foci bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons and Regeneration and I still don't care. -Frank |
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