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> Marriage Customs of Sixth World Neocultures, Because I ran into a really f-ed up site
Backgammon
post Jan 19 2008, 06:17 AM
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Before this thread gets closed, just wanted to say that I think amongst corporate mid-management and up there would probably be a whole lot of marriages of convenience/alliance that from a corporate politics point of vue would suit both parties well.

Also, amonst the numerous Japanacorps, who often operate as 'family' units, you probably can't get a mid+ management job if you are not married.

With the billion-hour work week that the corporate drones, and especially ladder climbers, have to pull in, marriage is probably a loveless thing. Just two people getting together to divide house keeping tasks. Business at work, business at home. Spouses check up on each oher and the tasks they have to do, then go their seperate ways to their individual simsense experiences and go to bed. Sex is overrated anyway - they barely know and like each other in the first place, and simsense is better than sex anyway.

Plop out a kid, again as a convention, appearances sake. Send the kid off to corporate boarding school, get the damn bugger out of trouble and out of your hair.
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Snow_Fox
post Jan 19 2008, 05:22 PM
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Sure, they expect you to ignore your family to stay at your desk for the corp, but they like the nice picture of the corp as home to happy families. The sort of two faced mind set we've learned to expect from the corporate world.

Imagine the deals you get if the corp does your wedding though. I mean they own the site, the caterer, the clothes the DJ. etc. and you can get special themes, like at Disney today.

I've heard in Japan weddings are remarkably expensive affairs with the happy (but suddenly improvrished) couple having to wear at least 3 outfits. 1 for the ceremony, 1 for the reception and 1 for going on honey moon. Often a forth outfit for pictures between the ceremony and the reception.

Also a big style trend in Japan is now western style weddings with caucasian men with good voices being asked to play the role of a minister, after the real official or priest has done his part. that having been said, sure, these could get really wild for costs and I'm suddenly thinking of a whole new set of runs. hee hee hee
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FlakJacket
post Jan 19 2008, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca)
For stability, arranged marriages at a young age are far superior to romantic marriages when one is older.  Given that arranged marriages have a substantially lower divorce rate than "love" marriages, I'm surprised that they aren't standard today.

Yes but is that more because of local attitudes and customs of 'So what if your miserable? You married, now get on with being bored for the next 60 years. Divorce is not acceptable. Oh and we'll send round a bunch of male relatives to kill you if you try to leave and dishonour or family' type situation?
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 19 2008, 06:53 PM
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I don't believe so. I mean, I suspect that having taken the element of choice out of it has something to do with it, and societal expectations probably do as well, but I don't believe the outcome in terms of divorce rate is higher for cultures with strictly-arranged marriage (in contrast to something like the Japanese-style arranged marriage, which as far as I can tell is "here, let me introduce you to this person. Now go decide whether you're going to marry them or not.") where repercussions for deviating from expectations are less severe (say, no mobs out for blood because of a divorce).

For what it's worth, there's evidence that humans tend toward serial monogamy rather than strict monogamy—I believe the span is generally considered four years. As such, arranged marriages could be considered unnatural because of how frequently they last longer than four years.

~J
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Stahlseele
post Jan 19 2008, 08:09 PM
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one of our politicians just proposed a law that would limit marriage to a seven years span and would have to be re-established by then
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 19 2008, 08:41 PM
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Probably not a bad idea, though a similar clause for laws would be more beneficial (possibly with a shorter duration).

~J
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martindv
post Jan 19 2008, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)
QUOTE (martindv @ Jan 18 2008, 11:44 AM)
QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue @ Jan 18 2008, 10:39 AM)
As an American, I think Stahlseele has a point. America does bitch a lot about other countries, and it does need to clean up it's own backyard.

Uh, dude. That describes a whole bunch of countries. Like all of them.

I mean, it's not exactly a secret that there are a bunch of people *cough*Europeans*cough* who bitch and countries *coughcough* Western Europe*coughcough* that bitch about the United States all the time. So let's not play "Who's the biggest national douche" with only one contestant.

Well, if you'd read the whole post, I said pretty much the exact same thing.

And I'm sure the only reason pregnant 10 year olds can't get married in Arkansas is that nobody can bring themselves to make a maternity wedding gown in childrens' sizes. This is the second conversation I've had about children-sized wedding gowns today, but the first about children-sized maternity wedding gowns.

I wasn't addressing it just to you.

Besides that, you were too equivocating for me.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 19 2008, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
For what it's worth, there's evidence that humans tend toward serial monogamy rather than strict monogamy—I believe the span is generally considered four years. As such, arranged marriages could be considered unnatural because of how frequently they last longer than four years.

~J

The end of the dopamine-intense phase the the relationship is probably the primary cause of divorce. In the case of arrange marriages, there probably isn't a dopamine-intense phase. Thus, they have a chance to build a lasting bond over time without the risk of discontentment associated with the end of the dompmine-intense phase of a relationship.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 19 2008, 09:30 PM
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Right. People just aren't meant to stay together after the dopamine-intense phase—you should be getting out there and diversifying your gene pool commitment, not sitting around with the same old batch of genetic material. Arranged marriages short-circuit that "move on" cue.

~J
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 19 2008, 09:46 PM
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Fun fact: reducing even further the weight of the "social expectation or threat of violence" theory, this USCIS report indicates that fully 80% of marriages to mail-order brides reported have lasted throughout the period for which reports are available.

~J
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hyzmarca
post Jan 19 2008, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 19 2008, 04:30 PM)
Right. People just aren't meant to stay together after the dopamine-intense phase—you should be getting out there and diversifying your gene pool commitment, not sitting around with the same old batch of genetic material. Arranged marriages short-circuit that "move on" cue.

~J

Of course, the release of Oxytocin during sex suggests that long-term bonding to sexual partners is selected for, to a degree and that pseudo-polygamy (with one primary long-term relationship and a series of torrid short-term affairs) may be preferable to serial monogomy. Mechanisms of sperm competition also suggest that infidelity is selected for in both genders.

Since dopamine-intense romance and long-term oxytocin based bonding work by totally different chemical mechanisms, they are mutually compatible. It is possible to maintain a long-term bond with one individual while still engaging in an intense romance with another.

In the matter of resource appropriation, serial infidelity is preferable to serial monogamy. The breakup of a monogamous relationship can easily ruin one or both partners while infidelity simply adds more avenues for resource-sharing.

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FlakJacket
post Jan 20 2008, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 19 2008, 06:53 PM)
I don't believe so. I mean, I suspect that having taken the element of choice out of it has something to do with it, and societal expectations probably do as well, but I don't believe the outcome in terms of divorce rate is higher for cultures with strictly-arranged marriage (in contrast to something like the Japanese-style arranged marriage, which as far as I can tell is "here, let me introduce you to this person. Now go decide whether you're going to marry them or not.") where repercussions for deviating from expectations are less severe (say, no mobs out for blood because of a divorce).

Ignore my last post, I'm an idiot. When you said arranged marriage I somehow mentally read it as forced marriage which is of course a whole other kettle of fish. I can but blame lack of sleep since I've debated this whole issue with Asian friends to death in the past.
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Snow_Fox
post Jan 20 2008, 05:32 PM
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you're not so out of it, that's what I was thinknig about, especially when you hear of araband indian cultural groups in the west were someone, usually a woman, rebells against going into an arranged marriage and is later the victim of an 'honor killing."
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 20 2008, 06:51 PM
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http://www.shaadi.com/

It's real. And it extends into the US. 60 pages of potential brides aged 20 to 25.

-Frank
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kzt
post Jan 20 2008, 07:18 PM
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It's classier than buying a 17 year old Moldavian girl for 1,000 euros in Bosnia. Which is also a real option.
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FrankTrollman
post Jan 20 2008, 07:39 PM
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A Thousand Euros for a Moldovan girl!? You are being overcharged my friend, Moldova is practically on the barter economy these days and you can get a whore or a wife literally for peanuts.

I think you're out about 200 kilograms of peanuts, which will set you back about 300 Euros.

-Frank
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Fresno Bob
post Jan 20 2008, 07:41 PM
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See, I just tell them I run a restaurant where they can sing for money, and all I have to pay is the cost of a plane ticket.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jan 22 2008, 05:01 AM
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QUOTE (Riley37)
hyz, how do you run across so much stuff in so many directions? The FAQ was scary, but the testimonials were scarier. I'm tempted to fake a viable proposal just to get a girl away from those parents and into a hippie commune or something.

People who want their children to grow up "old-fashioned" these days have a pretty uphill challenge. I've heard that there are Amish-type communities in the Midwest in which parents encourage their sons and daughters to try mainstream life around 18 or 19 years old... and where they live, mainstream life is mostly trailer parks with recreational crack use, so most of the young adults scoot back to the more restrictive, but safer and happier, subculture they grew up in. In the Sixth World, I see raising children "old fashioned" as an even more uphill challenge, and those who really care will form enclaves. The Idaho Panhandle, for example, may still be a place where one can avoid modern urban life... and establish any one of a variety of possible microcultures.

There are a variety of reasons one might have for forging a pedigree. Another thread described a run based on "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers". People living in an isolated valley kidnap several women from mainstream corp society; corpers hire shadowrunners to rescue the women; but some of the women want to stay... maybe because it's less polluted, rather than a Gor-esque "ah, I cannot resist the Real Man who has claimed me". In this version, the runners kept their deal, but left their van unlocked and programmed with an autonav back through the hidden pass into the valley, so they got paid AND the women got to make their choice.

Extra points for mentioning Gor.

Gor will never be complete till there are more fetish sites featuring "Gorian" photographs that feature squishy and overweight females photographed in trailers doing their Gor poses.
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Jeremiah Legacy
post Jan 22 2008, 07:01 AM
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Do I even want to know what the hell Gor is?
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tisoz
post Jan 22 2008, 02:21 PM
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Gor is counter-Earth, a planet directly across the sun from Earth, the setting for John Norman's fantasy book series of manly men weilding swords and slave women who wear clothing at the desire of their manly men masters. Soft porn in nature. Priest kings limit technology and people seem to be in prime health and live long natural lives, probably to make up for all those that die during manly men conflict.

The Gor poses probably references typical fantasy art for book covers with scantily clad women, or nude women with long hair that happens to obscure anything that would call for a PG13+ rating.
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Jan 22 2008, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (Jeremiah Legacy)
Do I even want to know what the hell Gor is?

Not really. But if you watch too much MST3K and find out, it won't be the end of the world.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 22 2008, 02:33 PM
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A mildly non-work-safe picture is worth a thousand words.

~J
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tisoz
post Jan 22 2008, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 18 2008, 04:36 AM)
And they still complain about Japan being Pedoland?

Given that the US apparently thinks that any sexual activity before age 18 makes for Pedoland (with some states, but only some, making exceptions for similarly-aged people), quite a lot of nations qualify.

~J

Age of Sexual Consent in North America with links at bottom of page for most of the rest of the world. I noticed at least one state missing from the list.

I also know there is a US federal law making it illegal for anyone to go to a country to have sex with a person under 18 - even if it is legal in that country.

A more complete list.

Is any of this covered in any of the SR books? Like if the NANs have arranged marriages or what their view is toward age of consent. One hundred years ago and more, the expected lifespan was shorter and people married earlier. Would the NANs revert to these traditions or see them as a result of the times?

<edit>
Just found some of this in Sprawl Survival Guide. It looks like it is the same as now for the age of consent.
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hyzmarca
post Jan 22 2008, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
A mildly non-work-safe picture is worth a thousand words.

~J

But that picture doesn't even begin to explain that their is a subculture of individuals known as Goreans who are obsessed with the Gor novels to the point that they take their lifestyle from them, with the manly sword combat removed for some reason. Thus, there are groups people who practice 24/7 Total Power Exchange sexual slavery using trappings stolen directly from the Gor novels and some of them post naked pictures of their slaves on the internet.
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Fortune
post Jan 22 2008, 05:51 PM
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Where do I sign up? :D
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