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> The Star and (forbidden) Cyberware
Elve
post Jan 20 2008, 07:30 PM
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What happens if the Star (or whoever else) catches you with the lots of restricted or even forbidden ware you have implemented into your body?

They can't just release you some times later, since you in fact would be illegal...

Do they remove it? Who pays for that? You of course...
Other ideas?
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hyzmarca
post Jan 20 2008, 07:59 PM
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There was once a fellow in my home town who was arrested with a semi-truck full of marijuna. Due to an illegal search, he was set free. The police informed him that he could pick us truck (still full of marijuna) up at the impound lot, free of charge. Wisely, he did not do so.

Letting them go with their illegal cyberware intact has one huge advantage, the police can arrest them again 5 minutes later and charge them with possessing the same illegal cyberware.
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Kyoto Kid
post Jan 20 2008, 08:06 PM
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...you're SINless, you have no rights, you have F legality ware...

QUOTE (SR IV p. 259)
SINless Consequences
        If a SINless person is arrested, several things can happen.
It  is  not  uncommon  for  the  SINless  to  be  horribly  abused,
locked away, or “disappeared,? as they have no rights to speak
of and no datatrail to even prove they exist.

With the public and administrative fire that the Star is coming under in Seattle right now, this could be more of a possibility than yanking the ware, giving the offender a Criminal SIN & tossing him back out on the street again.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 20 2008, 08:10 PM
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and if you indeed have a SIN and it's not just the usual criminal one, then they will most likely not jnak it out but probably do some surgery to keep you from using it while still leaving it in your body . .
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kzt
post Jan 20 2008, 08:12 PM
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He should have shown up, opened the back door and been shocked, just shocked, by how it got full of MJ while in police custody and insisted the police remove it from his truck.
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imperialus
post Jan 20 2008, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (kzt)
He should have shown up, opened the back door and been shocked, just shocked, by how it got full of MJ while in police custody and insisted the police remove it from his truck.

You forgot to preface that with "Mr Blackadder Sir! I have a Cunning Plan!"

The way I've always dealt with it is to assume that the Star is chronically corrupt. A tidy chunk of :nuyen: will get them to turn a blind eye, unless they're also after you for something else that's bigger (grand theft, murder ect.), or you happen to get picked up at some point when they're trying to crack down on illegal cyber specifically.

A rule of thumb that I've used in the past is to total up the value of the illegal/unlicenced ware and set the bribe of 5% of that. This is enough to make all but the wealthiest of sams feel the pinch but it's not likely to ruin them either. This works for other illegal gear too if you don't want to take it away or get into a firefight but want to remind the runners that they aren't alpha dogs.
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Jack Kain
post Jan 20 2008, 09:03 PM
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It might also depend on the type of forbidden ware. I'm quite sure a grenade launcher built into your cyberarm would generate more of a thus then the tailored pheromones.

Some ware however may be illegal to have installed but its legal to have it already as long as it isn't a weapon.
As the forbidden status can vary from country to country. Weapon ware is easily though you would be short a limb. But the forbidden bioware would be much more complicated.
"Sorry sir I can't make that trip the UCAS my thyroid gland is illegal there"
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Jhaiisiin
post Jan 20 2008, 09:16 PM
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I remember in SR3 (2?), it mentioned that security people often knew how to disable specific cyberware types. If that's still possible, they could disable your cyber-gun, and mark it down on paper, thereby fulfilling their requirement.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 20 2008, 09:54 PM
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there's no actual way to disable any cyberware at all, short of invasive surgery . . there are those cutresy little manacles that electro-shock you if you activate certain cyber-systems . . but there's ways around that if you can't simply resist the damage. .
Illegal bioware might be a bigger Problem, but nothing short of a genetic test will detect most bioware anyway, so most of the times they are simply not going to find it . . if you're lucky they won't even LOOK for it, once they found your cyber-gear, because they could just as easy assume that that is all . .
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FriendoftheDork
post Jan 20 2008, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Jhaiisiin)
I remember in SR3 (2?), it mentioned that security people often knew how to disable specific cyberware types. If that's still possible, they could disable your cyber-gun, and mark it down on paper, thereby fulfilling their requirement.

Yeah I remember using something like that myself, except it was supposed to be temporary. I suspect it's possible to disable cyberware permanently though, or require more surgery to fix it again.

Alot of runners probably just refuse to be caught by the Star in the first place, as they are illegal themselves. In that case, bribery could work. Not that Lone Star go around arresting everyone with illegal ware all the time, I suspect they only do it if some street sammie walks around a fine neighbourhood with obvious ware, or they arrest a runner for some other reason.
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Jhaiisiin
post Jan 20 2008, 10:01 PM
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I'll have to see if I can find the reference for it (I know it's not in SR4), but I know I remember reading that cyberware was disabled upon entering a certain area... can't remember if it was the Salish Sidhe council lands, a specific building or what it was, but I know I read it.

Course, as this is the SR4 forum, that makes it kinda irrelevant, huh?
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Whipstitch
post Jan 20 2008, 10:01 PM
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I wouldn't go so far as to say invasive surgery; there's probably overrides that can let you go through the 'wares wireless to deactivate it in the case of things like wired reflexes as well as manacles that can block off the ports for your spurs, but something like bone lacing and dermal plating just kind of sits there and does its job merely by existing, which is probably part of the reason why such things aren't legal.
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Jhaiisiin
post Jan 20 2008, 10:05 PM
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For clarification, what I do remember only seemed to apply to cyberlimbs and other "external" powered 'ware. Skillwires, Wired reflexes and the like were not something that could be deactivated, but apparently they could affect your limbs to keep you from doing anything drastic (in theory, obviously).

Then again, a smart runner would set the standard deactivation setup with a quick bypass when the ware was installed in the firs place. That way his teammates could flip a nifty switch, thereby removing the lovely restriction placed on them by security.
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Stahlseele
post Jan 20 2008, 10:07 PM
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i'm not too sure about how much that has changed, but bonelacing was legality P(permit) in SR3 except for Titan-Bones which got an R(restricted) . . and all Dermal-Tech had the P Legality, as it is only there to defend yourself . .
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Fortinbras
post Jan 21 2008, 07:17 AM
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In the old(SR@ & 3) system a lot of the Class B and C cyberware carried mostly heavy fines, depending on the country, in which case no corporation in their right mind would take it away on the off chance they could arrest you and fine you again.

In fact, as that would be eating into profits, it would be illegal for a publicly traded company not to do everything they can to make as much money as they can regardless of the consequence, unless that action was more illegal than violating anti-trust laws.


However, using today's legal system as an example, if you did get caught with Class A or Class C cyberware in the UCAS(if legality rules haven't changed much since SR3) and you couldn't bribe enough people and ended up doing your time, when you got out you would be given a parole officer.
The PO would then enroll you in some type of rehab program to get your illegal cyberware removed with a payment plan by a certain date. If you choose not to have the stuff taken out, your PO would then report you and you'd be running from the Star again, or going back to jail.

While the Hippocratic oath would prevent any doctor from removing cyberware without your consent, the system just makes it impossible for you not to comply with them without going to jail.
The closest modern equivalent I can think of is a court ordered installment of a breathalyser on your car after a DWI or a judge ordering you to go to AA or Na meetings.

The main thing I would keep in mind is that the modern judicial system is run on money. Criminologists call it the "prison industrial complex" and it is very profitable to some and detrimental to others.
Now multiply that by the fact that the 2070 justice system is legally required to make a profit.

I would have any game in which the characters have to deal with the issue be more pressed to either come up with a great sum of money, or do a run for a sub-contracted rehabilitation company that is more concerned about undermining a competing organization than actual rehabilitation. Something like that.

Just keep in mind there is little actual justice in the Sixth World.
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paws2sky
post Jan 21 2008, 05:36 PM
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Elve, I would suggest going with whatever furthers the plot/campaign/etc. rather than being very strict. Different people will handle the situation differently.

If the character is a genuine problem (pain in the ass, annoying, brokenly powerful), they may never see the light of day again. That's a heavy handed way to deal with problem characters, but its legitimate enough, especially if you didn't railroad the character(s) into the situation that caused them to get caught. In other words, if they were stupid, its their own fault.

If you want the charcter to be out of play for a while or lose the F grade item, you could do a few different things. Perhaps LS is looking to test out a new toxin/simsense/etc. technology that can be used to disable certain specific pieces of cyberware. So, the LS doctors inject the character with a series of chemicals (or whatever) that permanently disable his/her Wired Reflexes, for instance. Other nasty experiments may include:
  • a genetically modified flesh-eating bacteria that targets bioware implants or muscle replacement
  • a hot sim/BTL treatment that renders the character incapable of dealing with violence of any kind. Even making the character incapabel of defending himself if attacked. (a la A Clockwork Orange)
  • a brand new, shiny cortex or kink bomb. Or perhaps they have a new implanted pain inducer that can be used to control their behavior if they get out of line.
  • a new bioware implant the releases a steady dose of toxins. As long as the character comes back for their weekly/monthly/whatever treatment, the toxins won't accumulate enough to be a problem...
If the character getting caught is a problem for the campaign, you might want to play up the corruption angle to enable the character to get back out on the street again.
  • Would a sufficiently large bribe get the character his/her freedom?
  • Does s/he need to agree to do an off-the-books job for someone at the precinct? Or the DA's office? Or maybe someone down at City Hall?

Also consider that LS is still a corporation. They may need runners to do some dirty work for them. Maybe the precinct captain has a grudge against a criminal that's hiding in a corporate enclave. His boys can't go in because of extraterritoriality, but a runner team could try and pull an extraction in exchange for their freedom.

If you're into comic books, maybe check out some of DC's Suicide Squad series for ideas.
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Shrike30
post Jan 21 2008, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE (Fortinbras)
While the Hippocratic oath would prevent any doctor from removing cyberware without your consent, the system just makes it impossible for you not to comply with them without going to jail.

The number of doctors who actually take the Hippocratic oath in 2073 is probably limited. I'm also willing to believe that you could easily find a doctor today who would be willing do non-consensual surgery on a known criminal and murderer to remove a blade he's somehow managed to implant in his left arm.

"Consent" is nowhere near as cut and dry as the general public likes to think. I'm an EMT... almost daily, I transport non-voluntary patients (people who have not consented to the treatment they are recieving), and while many of those are psych patients (who aren't legally able to give consent, due to their mental status), a big chunk of them are prisoners.
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Calabim
post Jan 21 2008, 10:09 PM
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Without insurance you can't "easily" find a doctor to do anything. I'm speaking as an uninsured American. I have problems picturing an uninsured criminal getting even an asprian.

That being said I have used a back yard dentist. However he was not easy to find nor was he a "licensed" dentist.
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DTFarstar
post Jan 22 2008, 03:12 AM
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You could always get sent to jail for a little while, Calabim. While we may not have national health care the state/federal prison is legally required to provide health care to its' inmates. I know someone (indirectly) who got sent away for like 3 months for some minor crime to get his 4 root canals done for free.

Chris
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DTFarstar
post Jan 22 2008, 03:13 AM
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You might also want to change "without insurance" to "without insurance or large sums of liquid assets." Money make-a de world go round.

Chris
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Calabim
post Jan 22 2008, 04:35 AM
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My "dentist" learned his trade in prison. :D You mean to say I am only a simple possession charge from health care. Sweet. If i didn't like pooping in private I would so go with that.
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djinni
post Jan 22 2008, 05:14 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele)
there's no actual way to disable any cyberware at all, short of invasive surgery . .

send wireless signal to any internal piece of cyberware to have it turn off.
since its internal there isn't a hardware switch to turn it back on.

for external cyberware they can simply remove the hardware switch that allows you to turn it back on by filling it in with epoxy.

quick easy and simple
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Jack Kain
post Jan 22 2008, 07:18 AM
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QUOTE (djinni @ Jan 21 2008, 11:14 PM)
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 20 2008, 04:54 PM)
there's no actual way to disable any cyberware at all, short of invasive surgery . .

send wireless signal to any internal piece of cyberware to have it turn off.
since its internal there isn't a hardware switch to turn it back on.

for external cyberware they can simply remove the hardware switch that allows you to turn it back on by filling it in with epoxy.

quick easy and simple

Umm cyberware has DNI connections the brain simply turns it back on and possibly turns off the wireless access while its at it.
And anyone with ilegal cyberware sure has hell shouldn't be stupid enough to have the wireless access on.

Most cyberware is either always active such as say dermal plating or muscle replacement. Or is controlled from the brain. Cyberlimbs, wired reflexes.

A couple exception would include a cortex bomb which may well have no DNI control, a datalock and perhaps a few others.

So once again there is no way to disable cyberware with out some sort of surgery or mechanically operation on the ware. (such as removing parts from a cyberlimb).

And removing a simple part is rather stupid. If the guy was able to get the ware installed to begin with he's bound to be able to get that one part replaced.
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Ravor
post Jan 22 2008, 04:49 PM
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>>>>> If the fragging slot can't pay his bribe, err ... fine ... first we fit him with a shock collar and use him as a star in troll prison porn, then we cut him open and rip out his 'ware. Of course if he can't pay our "generious" fee up front then we might have to remove a few minor organs in order to recoup our loses, hell you can't expect us to run at a lost. <<<<< - Detective MacQuin
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mfb
post Jan 22 2008, 05:38 PM
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i don't think it'd be more difficult than just going in and removing the DNI interface from the 'ware, and plugging the hole with some sort of permanent non-toxic epoxy. for most 'ware, that's outpatient surgery. the criminal, once he gets out of jail or whatever, has a choice between having a street doc go in and chip away the epoxy so he can get a new DNI module installed, or having a street doc go in and remove the 'ware so he can sell it for parts to offset the cost of a new implant.
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