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 Registered Sprites, A question |
 Jan 21 2008, 03:12 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198  |
Ok, here's some facts:
Ok, have I gotten anything wrong so far? |
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Jan 21 2008, 03:43 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
why would you pay resources for something that is free when you're making something as badly starved for BP as a technomancer anyways?
(iow: who cares, it's a moot point, imo) |
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Jan 21 2008, 04:39 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
I did this on another forum, but it bears repeating:
Ok, here's a partial Sheet, because well...Go where you want with it! Resources left: 82BP, 250,000 Nuyen, 25Bp space for Pos Qualities, 24 Knowskill points. Dwarf B-A-R-S-C-I-L-W-E-R 3-2-2-3-5-4-4-3-1-6 Registering: 5 (Machine Sprites +2) Compiling: 4 Codeslinger(Registering) -10 Sensitive System -15 Combat Paralysis -20 5*Machine Sprites R6 (Tasks: 4) ...And that's it. Why didn't I buy Complex Forms? Well because there's no point. A.) I dont have to really hack, I can buy a Agent and Programs for him and simply let him do it for me while I fly along and provide Sprite Support. The Agent can also hack other drones for me. Why didn't I buy anything? Anyone can pick up this build and spend 250,000 however they wish: Combat Drones, Vehicles, Smartgun platforms, Air Vehicles...Doesn't matter. Whatever they do however, Machine Sprites can provide 12 dice to any of the tests, be it firing or jazz. Why is Registering so high and Compiling not? Honestly because Compiling has nothing to do with Registering. It's two different Tasks. It's as if they took mages, but Spellcasting for unbound spirits and summoning for bound spirits. Funny shit really. Oh, and there's no limit on the tasks on each sprite. How good are you at Registering? 15 Dice. 5(Reg)+6(Res)+2(Spec)+2(Codeslinger). If you go for say...R8 Sprite later on it's an opposed test between 15 and 8, the 8 has a chance at 2.5 or so successes, you can buy 3 or risk 4-5 or so I think. This makes Machine Sprites who in the end throw 16 Dice on attack tests, base. Can you resist the drain? Yeah, usually. 9 dice. 3(Will)+6(Res), so might take...Assuming 2-3 successes from the Sprites test...4-6 Boxes of damage? Shit, you'll survive regardless, but usually take 3 boxes. Now, you can also spend the 82 points to raise willpower some, or something. Possible Scenarios:
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Jan 21 2008, 09:07 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
Yeah, Seven-7..I kind of noticed that myself. I am not really sure. I just figure it was an error, and it was supposed to be 1 BP per rating, rating not to exceed Compiling.
What I am curious n is the whole thing about there not being an ability for Sprites to perceive the Matrix..I would think that, since there was no ability for them to perceive the 'Trix, and that they exist in the 'trix, that they could perceive it without there having to be an Errata allowing them to perceive the matrix. |
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Jan 21 2008, 09:23 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
Here's a quick fix: Drop Compiling from 4 to 0, gain 16Bp, drop the sprites, gain 20 more.
Throw 118 bp around as you wish. |
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Jan 21 2008, 09:28 AM
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#6
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Very few of the Contacts in the NPC section have the Perception skill. They all live (at least part of the time) in the Physical world, yet they have no means to perceive it. Perception is not an automatic skill possessed by everyone. Perceiving the obvious does not require a test, but for less in-your-face stuff, you need to make the test. |
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Jan 21 2008, 10:07 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
Funny, Perception is not listed as a "No Default" skill, so...they can perceive, they are just like most people RL: go through their days and will watch the person wrapping their sandwich up and ask if they had enough stuff to make a sandwich, or will go through the red light because they did not notice it was red while they saw the green arrow on the turn lane light. |
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Jan 21 2008, 10:26 AM
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#8
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Similarly, so can Sprites default. That was basically my point. What's yours?
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Jan 21 2008, 10:59 AM
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#9
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Ah. See my point is that a Matrix Perception test is Anlysis (attribute) + Computer (skill). And if you don't have either because you are a Fault sprite, you're defaulting on both, which gives you a -2 dicepool on top of nothing. No no, they can't perceive the Matrix, they are quite useless as written.
-Frank |
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Jan 21 2008, 11:15 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
I think it is more that they cannot do things that would require a perception roll. I do not think they are precisely totally useless. Does the Hacker need to make a perception roll to see the IC infront of him? No. Perception is just for Surprise and noticing things out of whack. At least, that is how I had kind of thought it was, anyway. |
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Jan 21 2008, 11:20 AM
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#11
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes.
Yeah, no Matrix Perception dicepool means that you are completely boned. -Frank |
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Jan 21 2008, 12:39 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
*hmmms* OK so you are saying this happens: IC appears infront of hacker. He manages to score no Hits on his matrix perception test. It attacks his Persona, but, since he failed to pass his Matrix Perception test, he cannot say "Oh..this is IC." In fact, you are saying that if it appears right in front of him, is not running under stealth, he cannot see it? And that the same applies to a Sprite that does not have one of the two abilities that give them the ability to make a matrix perception test? I am typing this from wrk. I have this big, huge marble counter right in front of me. Are you saying that for me to be able to see that counter by the RAW, I need to make a regular Perception Test? If my Sprite or I go into a node, are you saying that both would need to make a Matric Perception Test to see the architecture as programmed int the node? That otherwise, we just see a big floating expanse of nothing if we fail to make this test? I'm srry, but if something is hitting me, and and ding damage to me(whether it is known that it is to my meat or my persona is beside the point) I think I am going to know that it is IC. |
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Jan 21 2008, 12:44 PM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Why wouldn't you just default to Rating/Force/Whatever -1? |
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Jan 21 2008, 02:40 PM
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#14
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Because the attribute defined for Matrix Perception is the Analyze program. Without it you have no attribute. Now, the FAQ says that if you don't have the appropriate program you are allowed to Default on it. But the attribute defined for it is Logic, which the Fault Sprite also does not have! So you check:
No. I'm saying that the Matrix is not like normal space. There is no true "in front of" or "right next to" - that's all metaphor. There are hundreds of thousands of icons in any and every node. And if you cannot make a Matrix Perception test you cannot determine which is which. The Stealth Program is the defense pool in combat. Any matrix combat icon including a fault sprite is running one 24/7. Then, by the rules in order to target it, you have to win against it in an opposed Perception vs (Firewall + Stealth) test. So yeah, any icon with a defense pool of any kind automatically defeats a Fault Sprite. Eventually it will be able to find the Fault Sprite and then it will start attacking. The Fault Sprite can never find the source of its discontent and will eventually be destroyed. -Frank |
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Jan 21 2008, 04:08 PM
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#15
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
If I was playing a TM I´d argue that a matrix attribute would have to be used for defaulting in this case. The sprites rating would be most appropiate, IMO.
Not that it adds any real chance of detecting a dedicated hacker. |
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Jan 22 2008, 02:47 AM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
Minor nitpick: unless you are a program or node (and a fault sprite is neither) then you roll Hacking + Stealth to hide.
Umm...I suppose this can come down to a matter of interpretation but to me, this looks like Matrix Perception works exactly the same as Physical Perception. It is the same action with the same thresholds and the same modifiers. But hold on, one might argue, this is not the VR matrix perception area that I just quoted:
Well, the way I read this is that VR Matrix Perception is identical to AR Perception. You can see all the icons in VR without making a test but you don't know what they really are. So if you see a chair in VR it looks and acts like a chair--no test required. But until you make a VR Perception test or sit in it you won't know that it is a Black IC that kills anyone that sits in it. So the fault sprite can see the chair but would not be able to determine that it is a threat until it is actually a threat (no chance to avoid surprise). Likewise for a Hacker without Computer and Analyze. Finally just to be thorough:
So a GM shouldn't make you roll a Perception test to notice that someone is attacking you but he should make you roll one to see if you notice the distinctive tattoo on his arm as he kills you. Ditto for AR/VR perception since they work exactly the same as normal Perception. |
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Jan 22 2008, 02:57 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 246 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,198 |
Yes, but since IC Stealth, what you are saying amounts to: Guys, you don't always have to make your runners roll perception against hidden people, just assume they know where the hidden people are most of the time! Which is wrong and very stupid.
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Jan 22 2008, 03:16 AM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I never said you don't roll it when hidden. Frank was suggesting that EVERYTHING in the Matrix is hidden. Which is partially true in VR. The true nature of everything is hidden. The only things that are actively hiding are those running Stealth. Frank was also saying that AR/VR perception is NOT like physical perception but they ARE. Cardul was right with his example of his big marble desk. You don't need to make a Perception test to notice it. Now if it was hidden away in a corner and draped in Ruthenium Polymer then he would have to make a test to see it.
Okay, on second reading I'll grant that he didn't actually say that you can't see the Icon. But I'm pretty sure you'd be able to tell the difference between the IC w/o Stealth attacking you and the Spreadsheet File that is sitting in the filing cabinet. I will also argue that there is in fact a true "in front of" or "right next to." That is all defined by the Matrix Topology of the node you are accessing. Also note that you don't need to have an Access ID of your target in order to attack it. You just have to have Matrix LOS. So even if you don't know that that is an IC attacking you, it is hostile, and you can see it so you can attack back. Yes, Fault Sprites are still boned by Stealth but they are not useless because they can still see everything else. Although you are much better off getting them to attack passive icons than engage in cybercombat. |
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Jan 22 2008, 03:51 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 698 Joined: 26-October 06 From: Iowa, United States Member No.: 9,720 |
I just noticed this forum and I was working on a "Pokemancer" myself. Here's what I got so far. [ Spoiler ] Basically give the technomancer analyze, or compile a courier sprite to act as sentry. He can spot things, then point the other sprites in the right direction. "Attack sector 1000101101, its not a chair!". Your own not having stealth isn't an issue (only ones without are Data and Machine anyways), you just temp dismiss them until they are needed.
Is this supposed to mean that like agents they all are supposed to come with Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, and Hacking, and has a Logic/Intuition/Willpower = Pilot? Thats the definition of what a Pilot gives you, or are they just equivilant in that both use numbers (instead of colors, or fruit) to define them? Also would they be like agents, in able to carry a payload, such as My analyze complex form, or maybe just an analyze program? |
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Jan 22 2008, 04:02 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
not much is clear in the matrix rules, but it is clear that resonance-based matrix entities cannot load or run non-resonance matrix stuff, and vice versa.
also, you can't just hand off your analyze complex form... it's a part of you, not just a matrix object you can pass around. if you could do that, it would be possible to buy complex forms from other technomancers, for example (or borrow them from your sprites), and that would just be weird. |
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Jan 22 2008, 04:13 AM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
and horribly broken |
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Jan 22 2008, 04:15 AM
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#22
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
My take is that if an Agent can do something, either naturally (without programs or autosofts) or by defaulting, then a Sprite can probably do the same. |
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Jan 22 2008, 04:28 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
no more than a hacker getting all his rating 6 programs for free |
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Jan 22 2008, 04:29 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 698 Joined: 26-October 06 From: Iowa, United States Member No.: 9,720 |
Question on Sprites/Technomancer Riggers
Since it is skill + Device Attribute, do these affect Technomancers/Sprites as well? So a Machine Sprite would roll Vehicle + (Device's) Response, instead of Rating x 2. |
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Jan 22 2008, 05:04 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
machine sprites have the command CF. they can operate the device using the "control device" matrix action, which means they would roll command CF + autosoft rating, both of which will be at a rating equal to their own rating... and thus, they would be rolling double their rating anyways ;)
i suppose you could allow them to roll the vehicle's response instead, but i don't really see that as making sense... those are the rules for riggers, and strictly speaking sprites and pilots don't rig anything, as there is certainly no simsense involved. |
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