 2070 Holidays, NERPS NEEDED |
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 Jan 31 2008, 08:21 AM
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#51
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
Due to extensive lobbying from both the Skywalker Church, the International Fellowship of Jedi Temples, and the Dark Lords of the Sith, Wookie Life Day is a recognized holiday in many jurisdictions. :D
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Jan 31 2008, 09:18 AM
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#52
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I suspect the difference lays in that you are looking at what would be logical from the standpoint of modern society where-as I'm looking at what would be logical from a Cyberpunk standpoint which is very much a creature of an earlier era.
Perhaps sweatshops was a poor choice to use, the point I was trying to make is that the average wageslave has the same amount of control as a sweatshop employee did, including grueling working hours, docked pay, and the expectation of being brutalized by management. Although with the SINless masses, it might be cheaper to pay them virtually nothing in honest-to-god sweatshops then to set up and mantain a drone factory, property is quite often more valuable then human life.
There are several problems with this, the first being that in the Sixth World datajacks are an item that you quite literally can get installed in an average stripmall and they are capable of running 'knowsofts that gives you a level of expertize that has relatively few peers. When 5,500 :nuyen: can buy expert status in any given knowledge skill in an instant the idea that the workplace is an employee's market just doesn't add up. Now granted, it is more expensive to buy a set of skillwires and 'activesofts to cover the relatively few jobs that use active skills as opposed to knowledge skills in Fourth Edition, but still, the costs aren't high enough to be prohibative, especially when you consider that very few tasks actually need a skill higher then ( Rating 3 ) to suceed, hell, many tasks could probably be done at ( Rating 2 ) given that the wageslave in question would be racking up as many positive modifiers as possible from having good tools and excellent AR assistance. And don't for an instant think that the corp beancounters haven't realized that they can take an average slob off the street, sign him up to a contract and a corp credit-line with "fair terms" such as 50% interest, and after he recovers from the surgery to implant the ware that he paid for is able to be a virtual expert in whatever field the corp needs on any given day. The "high skill" employees that you keep referring to can easily be replaced with the corp actually profitting since they can mandate that the wageslave buy his own implants on credit. This is one of the threats that the corps hang over the heads of their wageslaves, "Keep working or you'll be replaced by vatjob employees almost as easily as the factory workers were replaced." And it is a very real threat because it doesn't actually cost the corp anything in the long run.
I disagree with you on both accounts, although there is "labor mobility" of a sort it only applies to the very upper level of employees, the talented few that outstrip the level that 'softs can provide, or those whose abilities and worth can't be measured solely by their skill rankings, your average accountant, lawyer, manager, ect simply have no hope of making the grade and have to live with a constant and very real fear of being replaced. As for unhappy workers being less productive, sure, but remember that all of the corps have been playing by the same rules for along time now, and very few people that are still alive in 2070 even remembers a time when human life had value and you weren't just a souless cog in the system, if a batch of wageslaves aren't meeting their quota then they are quickly replaced, either by vatjobs or by "normal" people, because in the labor market that must exist given Sixth World tech and the Cyberpunk genre there is always someone waiting in line to take your place.
Suprisingly enough, I tend to more-or-less agree (Outside of the corp sponsered sweatshops manned by the SINless that is.), but I wasn't really talking about the blue collars when referring to wageslaves, I have mostly been talking about white collar workers. |
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Jan 31 2008, 12:29 PM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 697 Joined: 18-August 07 Member No.: 12,735 |
Following your line of reasoning means that there would never be an extraction. It's always cheaper to chip somebody up and load them with a knowledgesoft. IMHO, loading the knowledgesoft is the equivalent in today's terms of having a paper MCSE vs a 10 yr grizzled Network admin who may or may not have one. The 10 yr vet has more experience and actual skills than the MCSE and is generally in higher demand. Knowing the facts of something isn't the same as knowing how to use those facts. Additionally since Knowsofts can go up to level 5. Which is described as a "Top Scientist" in the BBB. Since you can slot SINless as top Scientists, why even bother going for anything better than that? Employees having no value goes counter to the reason why Shadowrunners are hired for extractions. As for your earlier question as to why Shadowrunners and not the corp goon squad? Easy, deniability. Quite frequently things go wrong on an extraction. This way the corp hiring the runners can make no claim whatsoever about having had anything to do with the extraction and afterwards can say that so and so who they found looking for work has now decided to hire on with them. |
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Jan 31 2008, 05:03 PM
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#54
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Insert relevant Mandy Patinkin/Princess Bride quote here. I think I agree with cryptoknight.
Everything that I've gathered from SR fluff is that SINners are generally a pretty happy lot. Not because they're drugged and shackled, but because they work their little jobs and live their lives safely isolated from the realities of the street. They buy their shiny toys and watch their favorite shows about magic and shadowrunners, snuggled up safe in their arcologies, occasionally commuting through bad neighborhoods with their doors locked, and have no idea what life is like on the streets for the legions of SINless. I feel like the masses of happy SINners are what makes is to cyberpunk and dystopic.
I mean, we're all reading the same fluff, and you need to be aware that there are a lot of people reading the exact same fluff you are and getting a very different picture out of it, so unless you can start providing quotes to back you up you might have to acknowledge that you might not be holding the One True Interpretation. I genuinely don't think that's how you're intending to come off, but... ;) |
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Jan 31 2008, 05:19 PM
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#55
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I'm sorry but you are mistaken, more over I'm fairly sure I already covered these points.
Boldfacing added.) Of course extractions remain perfectly viable even after you've accepted the logical end results that 'softs would have on the labormarket, sure it's cheaper to build a vatjob researcher then to extract Bob Research, but your vatjob doesn't come with the intimate knowledge of "Project NERPS" that Bob Research has so Ares extracts him instead. The fact that by removing Bob Research delays MCT is gravy.
Excuse me? If the corps have to compete and value their employees then what exactly is keeping Kim Extraction from simply giving her two-week notice and returning to her previous corp? And given your view of the Sixth World the corp wouldn't dare level threats against her family and friends, after all, why would anyone work for a company that did that?
You are partially correct, standard 'softs are inferior to natural skills in one reguard, even with a "skillwire expert system" the user is severely limited in the ways he may spend Edge. That limitation on the technology may be the only reason that natural employees even have a hope of keeping their jobs. However that limitation isn't enough of one that corps are suddenly forced to value their wageslaves. |
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Jan 31 2008, 05:41 PM
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#56
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
:silly: Who me? :cyber: Seriously though one of the major problems that I have with the "it's 2007 with cyber, magic, and trogs" interpretation of the Sixth World is that we are given bits and pieces of fluff that simply doesn't fit if it were actually the case, the Accords that I quoted hyzmarca as referring to that upholds the idea that not only is bonded labor legal it is in fact illegal not to enforce the contracts, the fact that to-the-death-bloodsports are extremely popular with the masses despite being illegal, the fact that meat-puppets are common enough that their services only cost 50 :nuyen: an hour, a mother being required to scrouge for enough money to afford a datajack just for the hope of getting a job interview, the fact that the corps are perfectly willing to engauge in dangerous experiments using their own employees. Remember and the fluff about the former corp baby getting revenge on his boss for his wife's death or the storyline behind Emergence? Another is that they tend to willfully ignore the effects that Sixth World technology would have on the world, to paraphrase The Increbibles, 'When everyone is super, then no-one will be.' Besides, Shadowrun is supposed to be in the Cyberpunk genre, and one of the things that comes along with that is human life is not priceless, it can and is measured down to the last cred. |
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Jan 31 2008, 05:46 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 697 Joined: 18-August 07 Member No.: 12,735 |
How am I wrong. We're talking about simple economics... it's cheaper to slot up a bunch of minimum wage people with level 5 in whatever you want than to hire people. And at that point there's no reason to ever extract anybody.
No, that's why you'd do a datasteal. If you take Bob Researcher, you're better off stealing all the research notes and info and then slotting more level 5's to work on it. Taking all the notes and samples likewise slows MCT down. Much more than removing a single die or at most two from the team die pool for the research. Just take Sally Secretary and stuff a level 5 skill chip in her head.
Why would they work for the company that drugs them, stuffs a skill chip in their head and pays them jack squat? As to what would keep her from giving a two week notice? The same thing that keeps me from giving notice where I am now and then trying to get my old job back. The company that lost me no longer trusts me to be loyal. They wouldn't take me back, no matter how much they may or may not be suffering from losing me. Paranoia on the part of the Megacorp means they never will know if it was a willing extraction or not. So maybe Kim Extraction is now planning to go back to MCT from Ares for another couple weeks in order to steal research materials. In order to keep Kim Extraction from leaving MCT in the first place, MCT sets things up so Kim thinks her mother who's a secretary at MCT might lose her job if she leaves, or there might be an accident at the child care before she can get her kids out, etc. Fear is a much better influence, fear of the unknown. Not drugging your employees into a stupor. They're called wage slaves by Shadowrunners. I'm sure that there isn't a line item on Ares' General ledger called Wageslaves at all. They're called employees and they get benefits like vacation and health and dental and retirement. Page 41 of BBB states that much. |
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Jan 31 2008, 05:56 PM
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#58
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I got it...National NERPS day
...NERPS, for R&R. |
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Jan 31 2008, 06:07 PM
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#59
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Their called wageslaves by pretty much everyone, and they hardly mind - most times they prefer it (a large number of canon extractions are initiated by the employees themselves trying to wrest back control of their lives - see "Wake of the Comet" for one such). They are slaves because they are so far in debt that to maintain their lifestyle they mortgage their future through strict contracts with their employers. Often times their only real assets are stocks in the corporations themselves (Corporate Security Handbook), but they are given vacation time and health benefits, but where can they afford to go? Corporate resorts and clinics... |
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Jan 31 2008, 06:28 PM
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#60
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
You are wrong because you are trying to assume that people could only be extracted based off of their skill rankings, that is a premise that I am not going to accept.
No, because Bob offers something that a vatjob or even another highly skilled researcher can't, intimate knowledge of the Project NERPS data, that increases his value to the corp because Ares has to be able to rush the NERPS to market first, second place is merely the first loser.
Because the wageslaves don't really have any other choice, sure they are required to eat drek their entire lives as the corp crushes their very souls, but what other choice do they really have? Joining the SINless masses is just trading one hell for another, and few people are willing to make that choice. And once again I ask, in your view of the Sixth World where corps have to worry about keeping their employees happy in order to prvent them from leaving why would anyone work at a corp that uses scare tactics to keep them from leaving? Oh, and I finally reread page 41 in Fourth Edition Core, and I don't think it says what you seem to think it does. |
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Jan 31 2008, 07:03 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 697 Joined: 18-August 07 Member No.: 12,735 |
This is far from a drugged out mind numb chip headed wageslave. And since the only skills that have virtually no value chipped are magic skills. You'd never bother extracting anybody if you could slot a level 5 into joe schmoe and him or her as a drone would do the job. |
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Jan 31 2008, 07:28 PM
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#62
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
:rotate:
This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Jan 31 2008, 07:32 PM |
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Jan 31 2008, 08:30 PM
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#63
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Is it now? I disagree.
Once again you mistaken on the reasons that people would be extracted, I'll try this once more, You don't extract someone because they have a ( Rating 5 ) skill, you extract someone because they can provide you with things that aren't covered by a 'soft! You don't extract a head researcher because he has ( NERPS Engineering 5 ), you extract him because the extra time it would take to get your researchers, vatjob or otherwise up to speed on the data without him could very well mean the difference between being the first to market and a distant second. |
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Jan 31 2008, 09:39 PM
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#64
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Superbowl Sunday. (UCAS, CAS, PCC).
Considering how the game has changed with the times Shadowbeat the Superbowl would still be a hot ticket. Superbowl Sunday has gone beyond just a football match. Theres big time celebrity talent during halftime and don't forget about the adverts. Corps would still be laying out big :nuyen: for 30 - 60 seconds of airtime to one-up each other in a contest of commercial creativity. |
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Jan 31 2008, 10:12 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 8-November 07 Member No.: 14,097 |
Maybe if you actually spelled out what you think would be logical from a "Cyberpunk standpoint" (whatever that is), and why, it would be a lot easier to get where you're coming from, because I think there's a number of readers (myself included) that just don't get why you're going on about slaves and feudalism. DS |
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Jan 31 2008, 11:23 PM
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#66
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Seriously? Or just how much he's emphasizing it? (If you're serious, new topic it under "Feudal Megacorporations?" or something, cause it's a big subject.) |
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Jan 31 2008, 11:53 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 602 Joined: 2-December 07 From: The corner of Detonation Boulevard and Fascination Street Member No.: 14,464 |
International Day of Peace -may 10- a day when the whole world lays down its weapons, steps back and takes a deep breath, releasing all the negative energy that they accumulate through the year. It is a day to rejoice in our differences and reaffirm our vow of tolerance for all people, not just those who agree with us. Observing this helps heal bruised egos and strengthen us as a species.
also known as Hippy day. :) oh, wait. shadowrun is in the cyberpunk genre not the fantasy genre. my bad. :eek: please go back to pummeling each other senseless. ;) |
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Feb 1 2008, 06:04 AM
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#68
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Oh, I always thought May 10th was "beat a hippy day", my bad. :cyber:
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Feb 1 2008, 08:38 AM
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#69
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
They originally named it that, but with a totally different connotation. ;) |
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Feb 1 2008, 04:00 PM
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#70
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I thought it was beat a hippy for Christ day...
...at least since the 80's :grinbig: |
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