Book Club: Street Magic, Finally! Options

[Moon-Hawk]

Here's a thought. Did it say cow milk anywhere on the carton? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fortune]

*silently steps next to DocTatsuo, holding anti-grounding sign*

*Walks over to join them carrying a lawn chair and thermos of coffee.*

[suppenhuhn]

Generally speaking, when I was overseas, I stayed away from anything that wasn't processed and in sealed containers, other than fast food places. So I never tried the milk when I was in Japan, the Philippines, Italy, etc... I just didn't trust the health standards of those other countries.
Xenophobic Mike aka Apollo124

wow i think you don't know what you're missing. Just because food doesn't come in a wrapper doesn't mean it is infectious. (Aside from european and japanese food standards being comparable if not higher then the us ones (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Eyeless Blond]

Yeah, seriously. All that weird chemically-treated and genetically engineered food that we haven't done any studies on to see if it's toxic? Illegal in Japan and Europe, but here you don't even need a special label.

Not to mention the stuff that the FDA just can't inspect, seeing as how its budget is so small it can't even test 1% of imports, let alone actual domestic stuff.

[Drogos]

I eat food...it's good and nourishing.

I also really enjoyed Street Magic and it made me want to play more finger wigglers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Eyeless Blond]

Good point. Shall we move on? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Unless someone else wants to gripe over the lack of Grounding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Magus]

Good point. Shall we move on? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Unless someone else wants to gripe over the lack of Grounding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But I like grounding. It is what keeps my rigger from electrocution when working on my vehicles electrical system!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

Looks like Traveler Jones just passed through the boards.

What chapter were we on? I lost track. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ryu]

Collecting thoughts on initiation and metamagics is/was the chapter at hand. You decide.

[Ancient History]

I reckon it's Magical Groups.

[nathanross]

Hey, last day or two seems to have brought up a lot about Adepts, since we are on magical groups now, why not talk about Adept groups.

First, Logic + Arcana to bond to group, what is the rationalization behind this? What use do adepts have of Arcana besides bonding to a group? Can they use it to devise new adept powers?

There is an adept in my group that has Logic 1 and no Arcana, how the hell is she supposed to bond to a group (assuming her brain damaged head even knows it's an option)?

Second, while Gladio provides good flavor for a type of group for adepts, what might be some others? I didn't really like how the Songbirds or Sisters of Adrienne (sp?) were presented in SOTA: 2064, or at least I didn't see them as the right kind of group for my face adepts. What do you think is the point of adept groups aside from initiation, if any?

[Ancient History]

Ah, time for me to step in again. Arcana came in for threefold purposes: to replace the multiple and redundant magical design skills, to provide a skill for the active application of theoretical magical principles for design purposes, and to provide a baseline for magical knowledge outside basic theory or specialized knowledge.

Try this again: In the first two editions, four skills covered magical theory and design-Conjuring, Enchanting, Magical Theory, and Sorcery. Basically, if you were good at slinging spells you were good at designing them, with everything else folded into Magical Theory. 3rd Edition consolidated most of design in the Talismongering and Spell Design knowledge skills, while basic theory was covered in various knowledge background skills, starting with Magic Background abd working up to more specialized areas of knowledge like Conjuring Background, Spirits, etc.

The main problem with that approach is that it was all knowledge skills; the difference between rote memorization and active synthesis and design wasn't delineated-not to mention we still had tests spread out across at least three skills. So when Street Magic was in production, the decision came down that we'd use a single active skill to cover all aspects of design and use of magical theory: Arcana. This had the nice effect of simplifying many, many tests and requiring less Karma from the PCs. The downside, and this was pointed out, is that none of the default archetypes had the skill. 'course, the didn't really need it...

To emphasize the difference between practical application of theory and other active magical skills, let me make an analogy: casting spells very well (Sorcery) makes you a technician, designing the spells you cast (Arcana) makes you an engineer, and knowing the background (Magic Background, etc.) makes you student or academic.

So to answer your question: a magical group, even a group of adepts, is more than a giant mosh pit with you proving how strong your adept is. You need some idea of the underlying magical theory your group is operating with, and how you fit yourself into it. It's not unlike how many professional organizations, particularly those with a military or martial bent, insist you to have a good grounding in the practical basics of the trade or profession before joining. You can be, to continue the example above, a fantastic technician, but you're not going to join an engineer's guild unless you can prove a working knowledge of engineering.

[nathanross]

So to answer your question: a magical group, even a group of adepts, is more than a giant mosh pit with you proving how strong your adept is. You need some idea of the underlying magical theory your group is operating with, and how you fit yourself into it. It's not unlike how many professional organizations, particularly those with a military or martial bent, insist you to have a good grounding in the practical basics of the trade or profession before joining. You can be, to continue the example above, a fantastic technician, but you're not going to join an engineer's guild unless you can prove a working knowledge of engineering.

I understand very well the purpose for Arcana, and I thank you for the Edition's comparison. However, when you say that you need to understand theory to bond with the group, isn't this different for each group? Isn't making this a logic test somewhat absurd? Isn't this more dependant on each group's mutual view of magic, and not on some hermetic formula about how they are supposed to bond to make things more efficient?

Mind you, Hermetics and others who view magic as being a logical force controlled by formula and barriers would probably be best suited to make a Arcana + Logic test, but what about everyone else? How do Aborigine shamans view their bond?

Also, what about adepts that may not even view themselves as magical? To say that to bond is logical with a logical way of doing it just doesn't reflect the nature of what is happening.

[Eyeless Blond]

Second, while Gladio provides good flavor for a type of group for adepts, what might be some others?

Toastmasters.
Or, depending on your mood, the Nevada Brothel Owners' Association. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[nathanross]

Toastmasters.
Or, depending on your mood, the Nevada Brothel Owners' Association. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

NICE!

Prostitutes Guild for all the Pornomancers. Initiation by Orgy!

[WearzManySkins]

NICE!

Prostitutes Guild for all the Pornomancers. Initiation by Orgy!

Yes but you have to offer up a NY State Governor to initiate also. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[FrankTrollman]

I think it important to point out that the creation of Arcana was in no way a consensus, and many of the authors were against it. Myself, I would have preferred to keep all of its applications in the field of the Magic Theory knowledge skill that the Occult Investigator already had. As is, Arcana doesn't really do much on a day to day basis, and I truly don't think that it wold be off the charts for a Knowledge Skill to do all that.

-Frank

[suppenhuhn]

Yes that was the same thing i thought, ie arcana is to sorcery/conjuring as engineering is to technical skills. No real difference in the applications of both though engineering is a knowledge skill and arcana is active, which puzzles me quite a bit.

All in all i like this chapter though, the different groups are unique enough so that everyone will find one he likes. Also the ordeals (or whatever those oaths were called (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) are pretty nice.

[Grinder]

The fact that Arcana had been introduced in Street Magic and not the BBB bugs me most. We all remember the quote that "all skills will be included in the BBB", to prevent the rules bloating of previous editions when every new sourcebook had new rules in it.
And dang! One of the first SR4-books breaks that promise. Bad habits don't die easy, it seems.

[FrankTrollman]

The fact that Arcana had been introduced in Street Magic and not the BBB bugs me most. We all remember the quote that "all skills will be included in the BBB", to prevent the rules bloating of previous editions when every new sourcebook had new rules in it.
And dang! One of the first SR4-books breaks that promise. Bad habits don't die easy, it seems.

We tossed that one around quite a bit. The rebuttal of course was that the writers of the BBB had forgotten to include Enchanting, so there was really no way to write Street Magic without adding at least one Active Skill. I wish we'd kept it to one though.

-Frank

[Grinder]

That brings up the question, why the writers of the BBB had been so sloppy...

[Synner]

Possession and other dropped metamagics

Syn would be better to answer this one, but I believe it's because of the rarity. There's no reason you couldn't include homebrewed versions of Focus Blocking, Limited Astral Projection, et al. in your SR4 games, they're just not "official"...yet.

Possession was on the books for quite some time and eventually dropped. There were several deciding factors for this: one was that Possession was always an odd ball metamagic in that it was not only rare, it also rarely saw use because it also required an empty vessel, that said it could also be dangerously powerful in the right circumstances, and we were already streamlining all the various possession mechanics into a single common system, and there were certain metagame issues with a metahuman astral form breaching the astral/physical barrier to possess a body (spirits do it instead of Materialization but it is an innate power, metahumans being able to do opens another can of worms). In the end it was decided it really didn't add enough to the game and wasn't common enough to be worth the hassle.

Similarly Focus Blocking was discussed. This one to posed some metagame issues we weren't keen on, such as the fact that one magician could interfere with another magician's magical/karmic bonds to his foci. So we decided to tweak its potential as a defensive measure (ie. blocking your own focuses so they can't be backtracked to you if you are ever separated or they are stolen) and include that in Flux.

We discussed Limited Astral Projection, which my co-writers and I had introduced in SOTA64, but we ultimately decided to leave it out. No big deal there, we were just running short on space and thought it would be too much of a nice option for a limited number of adepts.

Note: We have had a Street Magic web add-on held in limbo for quite some time now, which features a number of write ups that were left out for space reasons. We've been too swamped lately to get to it. But it will be going up as soon as we have time to lay it out.

Tattoo Magic

It was decided that instead of "wasting" a metamagic slot for such a small benefit, it would be incorporated into a metamagic enchantment instead; which is why you have quickening materials in Street Magic. Realistically, this parallels the dissemination of the technique to the Sixth-World-at-large.

Ancient is spot on. Why introduce a complete new metamagic slot with such a style specific metamagic when it makes perfect sense as a form of enchantment (and makes Enchanting even more useful)?

Ah, grounding. This came up a lot. I think the usual comment against it was the potential for abuse-which is why it was removed in the first place, from what I've been told.

Grounding was throughly discussed and we decided to keep it out for many of the same reasons that it was ruled out in SR3 in the first place, it was too prone to abuse (not so much the foci sniper aspect but the Force 1 spirit suicide bomber aspect). Furthermore, more so than in SR3, the astral/physical barrier is hardcoded into the SR4 magic rules and the interaction between both planes when it comes to sorcery is very limited, grounding would require reajusting that to some extent.

We did consider grounding as a Metamagic that specifically used the magical bond of foci to their magician (rather than just their dual nature) to allow an initiate to pump a mana spell down that to the foci's bonder even if he wasn't on astrally active. This posed similar problems to Focus blocking though and we ended up not using it — though if people are homebrewing their own version I'd suggest using this focus specific option.

[Synner]

That brings up the question, why the writers of the BBB had been so sloppy...

This had nothing to do with sloppiness. It was deemed useless to introduce Enchanting (or something like Arcana) in the basic book, when it was patently obvious that there wouldn't be enough space to actually introduce mechanical applications for those rules. If we had introduced an Enchanting skill and left the pratical applications for Street Magic we'd have been equally criticized for that - so we went with saving these two skills for the advanced Magic rulebook. We knew going in we wanted to make Enchanting (and Arcana) a more common and versatile option than in previous editions, and making it a place holder in the BBB would have been doing it a disfavor.

[Synner]

Yes that was the same thing i thought, ie arcana is to sorcery/conjuring as engineering is to technical skills. No real difference in the applications of both though engineering is a knowledge skill and arcana is active, which puzzles me quite a bit.

Here's the thing though, Arcana is an Active skill. It is not just an upgrade Magic Theory. It is used to manipulate mana, give it form and power. While you use it to design spells, you also use it to create magical bonds between magically active subjects —such as the mystical link binding a magical group together, the creation of (physical) spirit formulae, or "programming" an Ally spirit's unique bond to its conjurer. These are unique and active manipulations of magic if limited ones, as valid as Enchanting or Sorcery. Arcana is not simply about coming up with the formulas it's about putting them to use - joining a magical group creates a magical link between you and the remaining members that very real bond is established with Arcana. If you're going to compare with other skills, its more Chemistry than Engineering. It has both a Knowledge facet and a practical application.

[suppenhuhn]

Here's the thing though, Arcana is an Active skill. It is not just an upgrade Magic Theory. It is used to manipulate mana, give it form and power. While you use it to design spells, you also use it to create magical bonds between magically active subjects —such as the mystical link binding a magical group together, the creation of (physical) spirit formulae, or "programming" an Ally spirit's unique bond to its conjurer. These are unique and active manipulations of magic if limited ones, as valid as Enchanting or Sorcery. Arcana is not simply about coming up with the formulas it's about putting them to use - joining a magical group creates a magical link between you and the remaining members that very real bond is established with Arcana. If you're going to compare with other skills, its more Chemistry than Engineering. It has both a Knowledge facet and a practical application.

I see what you're aiming at, but sm also states that arcana is the only magical skill that can be and is practiced by mundanes, thus hinting it is purely theorethical as such people can't interact with magic in any way. As an example: you design the formula (theoretical part) and then you summon your ally (that's where the magic comes into play). For me that sounds pretty much like you sit in front of your cad and design a new rudder (ship engineering theoretical skill) and then you get out your welding equipment and actually build it (nautic mechanic).
Not that it's a really big issue because one can easily houserule that and it wont be gamebreaking however it is put, just wanted to ask (IMG:style_emoticons/default/talker.gif)