Book Club: Street Magic, Finally! Options

[Ryu]

Goddammit. If it is missing/wrong in the BBB, put it in. Thats what errata are for. The main problem is that adepts do not profit in any way from Arcana, so it is basically "adept groups cost 9 karma". Even most spellcasters don´t care about the skill, it is not even linked by Centering (which refers to grade).

But anyway. You can spend 9 karma (5 group, 4 skill), and be a member of a magical group. Still a steal.

I like that the chapter stresses the social aspect of the group. I´ve seen players who only take a magical group in order to get cheaper initiation, and that is missing out on the fact that a magical group is a set of connections that would have cost an easy 20 BP(and way up) in contact BP. (I once played a member of IOND. The GM was always telling his own stories, disregarding char backgrounds. So he declared an attack on my groups headquarters as a punishment for something I did. After a little reminder, the attack was declared not to happen.)

All very fluffy. Preparing the initiation rite could maybe have used Arcana, so it is actually used for something everyone in a group will do. Membership fees have IMO no place in the magically relevant group strictures. That is a purely mundane aspect the group might handwaive. I´m also for a less stringent interpretation of "Servitude"(translation?), requiring 20h on average. But all is well.

Joining a group. It does not work that way in our game. Never will. 1) Karma for the attempt, 2) large groups are for the exceptionally powerful, 3) see Arcana, 4) not an extended test (no guranteed success), 5) long interval between rerolls, 6) the group has to require money up front.

The example groups are good. Besides IOND, MCT Unit 13 and the Mystic Crusaders have been used in our game. Players beginning with SR4 loose out on the Black Lodge and New Templars IMO, but page count is limited.

[nathanross]

Here's the thing though, Arcana is an Active skill. It is not just an upgrade Magic Theory. It is used to manipulate mana, give it form and power. While you use it to design spells, you also use it to create magical bonds between magically active subjects —such as the mystical link binding a magical group together, the creation of (physical) spirit formulae, or "programming" an Ally spirit's unique bond to its conjurer. These are unique and active manipulations of magic if limited ones, as valid as Enchanting or Sorcery.

Then why is it linked to Logic and not Magic? If it is a magic active skill like Enchanting or Sorcery, why on earth is it not linked to magic? Also, as suppenhuhn mentioned, it is the one area related to magic that mundanes can take part in. Am I the only one getting the feeling that maybe it didn't turn out like you intended?

That said, a test linked to magic for the Group bonding test seems much more reasonable to me. Also, if Arcana was linked to magic, like Enchanting, it would fit multiple traditions better and act more as a Magic skill.

[Synner]

Then why is it linked to Logic and not Magic? If it is a magic active skill like Enchanting or Sorcery, why on earth is it not linked to magic? Also, as suppenhuhn mentioned, it is the one area related to magic that mundanes can take part in. Am I the only one getting the feeling that maybe it didn't turn out like you intended?
That said, a test linked to magic for the Group bonding test seems much more reasonable to me. Also, if Arcana was linked to magic, like Enchanting, it would fit multiple traditions better and act more as a Magic skill.

Believe me it was the subject of heavy discussion. On the one hand it is meant to be available to mundanes, on the other certain functions are only available to magic users. We ultimately opted for Logic so that it would be available to mundanes for certain functions (spell design) and not strictly limited to magicians. In hindsight, I would have liked to make both options available (Magic or Logic whichever is higher). But as they say hindsight is 20/20. Maybe this will be tweaked in upcoming errata... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[nathanross]

I believe I owe Ancient History and Synner something of an apology about Arcana. First off, I failed to look in the optional section to see that Arcana can be based on attribute linked to drain for other traditions. As for adepts, I think I'll choose whatever is the closest tradition to their personal beliefs to determine the linked attribute for Arcana.

I do personally wish it would have just been a Magic linked skill, with the mundane portion as a knowledge skill. However, I am now content with at least the optional rules in the case of magical group bonding.

[Ancient History]

Okay, Magical Goods was my chapter and there's a few things I'd like to say regarding it.

This was my first actual time writing SR4 mechanics for an actual sourcebook. I wasn't part of the team that wrote SR4, and Runner Havens was pure fluff. Aside from helping to stat out a few goons in On The Run, there really hadn't been an opportunity for me to get into that side of things. I did do the SR3->SR4 character conversion guide, but mostly because everyone else was too busy. Personally, I think I did okay. That is, I included everything that was on my plate, and squeezed in a little more. There were arguments, mad moments, and the cutting of stuff I'd really have liked to included, and that's all par for the course-but I was new at this and didn't know it at the time.

This is also my second bit of intro fiction, and this time I got it down to the correct length. It took a lot of drafts to whittle this down-originally, the smith was going to be the ghost of some ancient Muramasa-clone whose personal domain was the old family forge...too complicated by half, and leave it at that. One thing I want you to do, though, is read the description of the sword and then flip to the half-page illustration on 85. The sword was written in as an example of a unique enchantment, and when they were assigning art I specifically asked for an illustration of the sword. Sword example got cut; illustration remained. These things happen.

It is not without embarassment that I note in the original draft, I consistently mispelled "Winterhawk" as "Winternight." Cross-referencing error, reboot and redo from start.

Recurring meme alert: Voodoo in Neo-Tokyo, p.76. At this point in the game Corp Enclaves was barely on the menu; I had no idea I'd actually be one of the people writing Neo-Tokyo. Still, look under the Ippissimus entry.

The fluff really takes a hard stance at enchanting and talismongering from a business perspective, without breaking out the jargon or getting into the nitty-gritty semantics. Enchanting is pretty much the prime method of turning magic into nuyen for shadowrunners, short of actual shadowrunning, and thus attracts a lot of interest on that front. My perspective on the matter is pretty plain-megacorps make a profit on talismongering because they have access to things individual shadowrunners don't: prime locations, masses of cheap semi-skilled labor, etc. I was going to actually go into the discussion of a "fetish factory"-essentially an Enchanting Teamwork Test-but space was an issue.

I kinda leapt at the chance to upgrade the "feel" of the enchanting shop; and then I did a backflip and redid all of the enchanting gear from scratch, introducing both the talislegger kit and the alchemy microlab-a forerunner to the chemistry microfac in Arsenal (which I also wrote. Notice a pattern?)

Assaying...ah. Moment of explanation here. Originally, Enchanting was going to be a skill group broken down into Assaying, Alchemy, and, Artificing. That got complicated, though it's still listed as a rules tweak, so Enchanting was used instead. I think it worked out for the best, but somewhere in the mix I had to cut out the actual Assay rules-players from older editions will recall home characters, even mundanes, could analyze magical gear to figure out what it was. This was a wee bit tricksy, wc was close, and it was fairly under-used, hence it being cut. If and when the Street Magic web supplement ever goes up, you might see 'em again, though.

Aid Enchanting was a might odd because there were so many more spirits types, including the ones being introduced in the same book. You'll immediately notice that not all of the spirits are directly comparable-only Guardian spirits add any dice to enchant foci of any sort, for example. It playtested as fairly balanced, though: certain situations favor one spirit type over another, but that's not inherently broken.

Reagents is a nice little re-labelling and consolidation I'm still happy with. For reasons of avoiding confusion, the old label arcana was dropped. Aside from being thematically accurate, I got to introduce animal reagents (which had been only haphazardly hinted at 'til Target: Awakened Lands) and provide a system for natural radicals and refined materials (first introduced in California Free State). Taking Enchanting out of the equation let mundanes still enjoy talislegging, even if things are a touch more vague to allow the GM time to screw with the players. One thing you won't notice is natural orchilacum: mining it was really weird anyway, so the rules and mentions were cut for space. And for Ghost's sake, check out the reagents table-I expanded the hell out of it.

Ritual Materials. In my defense, I really was told that ritual sorcery materials would be addressed in this book! Honest. It slipped past all the proofers, too. Gah.

My main beef with orichalcum is that I meant to make the standardized unit the grain. "2 grains" just sounds so much better than "20 grams" or "two units" to me. Still, not a huge hideous error.

People really liked Form and Function. Gives you a nice idea of what you're doing, I hope.

You can't really have an enchanting chapter without the Exotic Reagents Table. It's unCanadian-American.

Aspected Enchantments are one-part runic enchantments and one part specific spell/spirit foci.

Didn't have room for all the metamagic enchantments that have ever been. Part of this has to do with changes in individual metamagic techniques-Channeling no longer requires a Test, so a strict translation from Threats 2 is out as well; same-same with Centering foci. Infusion foci were cut for space, much like adept power foci and all the other really weird things I didn't have space for (gris-gris, fetish foci, expendable spell foci, etc.) As mentioned above, quickening materials basically made tattoo magic available to everybody.

Players might recall Snowblood from the SR3 to SR4 Conversion Guide, which I also wrote.

Curious absence: Street Magic is the first time in SR history the magic supplement didn't contradict the core book on the binding cost of weapon foci with Reach. Funny old world, innit?

Vessels were the source of a great deal of argument, which continued more or less constantly throughout the writing of the book, part of the whole possession/inhabitation clusterfuck. Arguments and precedents really stretched back to the serviteurs and other voudoun trappings of Awakenings and the homunculi from the Grimoires. There was, believe it or not, a point where we considered using alchemy to actually brew up and grow a homunculus from herbal and animal reagents (blood and herbs, basically), but I think the final product is superior. Had to cut a couple of the other homunculi examples for space, though.

One of the things I really wanted, and got, was the chance to make unique enchantments more open and useful to PCs. Before, they'd basically been GM plot devices. They still are GM plot devices, but this time PCs are explicitly allowed to create True Vessels (which had previously been hinted at, only), magical compounds (from California Free State originally, later proliferated throughout many supplments; catch the rest of them and some new ones in Arsenal), and unique radicals. The latter especially are essentially Earthdawn True Elements with the serial numbers filed off, going back to an obscure comment in the original Paranormal Animals of Europe and a reference in Shadows of Asia.

Okay, enough pimping from me.

[suppenhuhn]

This is one of my favorite chapters of the game, the selection of sample vessels is pretty nice, 1 for each possession tradition and those are different enough to hint to what vessels could look like.
The whole talislegging stuff seems a bit as if it was not meant for players to do considering the huge time one needs to invest to gather and prepare all the stuff (especially when compared to market prices) but its definitely nice to know and might be a good reason for an entire campaign.

Now what i do not understand are the magical compounds. While the definition of critter powers work perfectly fine for critters they simply do not work on mundanes. Simple example: Witch's moss which grants the power innate spell(petrify). Now if an awakened or a paracritter eats it everything works fine. If a mundane eats it you end up with a person that can cast a force 0 petrify with his 0 dice pool.
Many of those critter powers use magic as attribute and there its no problem since all paracritters have that. Also its no problem to require a critter to have an ability whereas requiring a char to learn a skill which he mustn't learn according to the rules is not that great at all.
Would be nice if there could be an errata about this or sthing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ancient History]

A good deal of thought was given about that, but the current layout works. No, a mundane won't gain any benefit from an Innate Spell, at least not without some truly arcane assistance, and they won't have the advantage of a Magic rating when it comes to the critter powers, but they do gain some advantage, and certain magical compounds are intended for magicians above others. Arsenal contains some magical compounds that are equally efficious for magicians or mundanes.

[Synner]

The example groups are good. Besides IOND, MCT Unit 13 and the Mystic Crusaders have been used in our game. Players beginning with SR4 loose out on the Black Lodge and New Templars IMO, but page count is limited.

Just two notes here. With the sample magical groups I really wanted to diversify and make the options more international. I'd always felt that the sample groups in the past were too American-centric, and with us openning up the setting we could do with some more variety. I also wanted them to provide not only sample groups but potential plothooks so they might see use as NPCs or plot devices.

I ended up updating more of the "classics" than I originally planned. I wanted to do at least a couple of Native American groups and couldn't resist giving the Bear Doctor Society a twist. The Benandanti are from SoE and got a passing mention in Loose Alliances. The Brotherhood of the Iron Crescent took shape as I looked into a non-state military background for a magic group for combat mages. The Dead Warlocks are a homage of sorts to a contemporary urban fantasy series. Gladio was one of the crowd pleasers in SOTA64 so I kept them in as a highly visible adept group that provides obvious plothooks. The Order of the Auric Aurora is a hold over for your old fashioned street mages, its been around since SR1 and I wasn't about to mess with it. The Illuminates needed a mention as a large and influential group which combines magical might and political clout. Jamil Islamyah is an fundamentalist Islamic order that was also introduced in SOTA64—I was on the fence between them and a Persian group of Islamic alchemists. MCT Unit 13 was added at the last minute, I was never very fond of them but we wanted a group that was corporate through and through. The Mystic Crusaders presented an opportunity to introduce some badass relic hunters and the Atlantean Foundation to new players. The Pathfinders were my second Native group, and they started out as bounty hunters and the concept evolved into Pueblo's magical police troubleshooters. The Rat Pack came from a desire to introduce some old-style street shamans and place them completely out of context (in Manhattan) - at this point we weren't sure whether Manhattan would be in Corp Enclaves. The Sisterhood is another hold over that I thought could do with an update, so I linked it up to groups and factions mentioned most recently in Loose Alliances, rather than having activists running around as complete independents. Finally the Sons of Thunder & Sea are my embelishment of an idea by Jay Levine—I knew he was pitching HK for Runner Havens and I asked him for a concept that was different and unique, he came back to me with his vision of Chinese Ghostbusters.

Three other groups were writtten up and left out for space: The Japanese monks at a Shinto shrine, the Grand Oxford Druidic Circle, and a group that will be making an appearance in Ghost Cartels.

[nathanross]

Finally the Sons of Thunder & Sea are my embelishment of an idea by Jay Levine—I knew he was pitching HK for Runner Havens and I asked him for a concept that was different and unique, he came back to me with his vision of Chinese Ghostbusters.

Three other groups were writtten up and left out for space: The Japanese monks at a Shinto shrine, the Grand Oxford Druidic Circle, and a group that will be making an appearance in Ghost Cartels.

I really enjoyed some of the new faces in the Magical Groups section (I could have done without the older ones, though, but that's just me being selfish). THe Sons of Thunder & Sea also gave me the idea for the type of campaign I want to run, "Spirit Hunters!" Our group is trying to isolate magic games from mundane (bringing them together is just a pain in the ass, you can't really sneak in if a spirit is watching), and I'm gonna take over the magical group. I thought the most fun idea for a purely magic group would be occult investigators/spirit hunters.

I really wish there would have been room for the Shinto Priest/Priestess (not Monk, just as it is Shinto shrine, Buddhist Temple) initiatory group. I am still trying to figure out reasons why a kannushi/miko would run the shadows. Is being an outcast metahuman enough? I'd love to get some more info on the Shinto community in Seattle in 2070 as well. If you can post anything I would greatly appreciate it (or let me know how long I'll have to wait for which book).

[fistandantilus4....]

the Grand Oxford Druidic Circle[/b],...

I really would have liked to have seen that one personally. Any chance of those appearing elsewhere?

[Grinder]

This had nothing to do with sloppiness. It was deemed useless to introduce Enchanting (or something like Arcana) in the basic book, when it was patently obvious that there wouldn't be enough space to actually introduce mechanical applications for those rules. If we had introduced an Enchanting skill and left the pratical applications for Street Magic we'd have been equally criticized for that - so we went with saving these two skills for the advanced Magic rulebook. We knew going in we wanted to make Enchanting (and Arcana) a more common and versatile option than in previous editions, and making it a place holder in the BBB would have been doing it a disfavor.

First I want to apologize if my lat post appeared to be snarky (even though I hope it did not).
Second: you're right. No matter which road you'd chosen, people would always complain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Grinder]

I really would have liked to have seen that one personally. Any chance of those appearing elsewhere?

Holostreets? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

Why do you hate me? Is it because I have the cool avatar?

[bibliophile20]

Why do you hate me? Is it because I have the cool avatar?

Probably. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Grinder]

Why do you hate me? Is it because I have the cool avatar?

My own answer made me sad too. I'm sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Synner]

Holostreets? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

I'm going to be very clear about this, cause it's getting rather old and we've been over the subject too many times to count. As has been explained before and was once again reiterated in yesterday's chat: moving ahead with Holostreets is not currently in our hands. If it were the service would have been up and running last year. It is wrapped up in license issues that are currently backlogged due to the Topps/Wizkids buy out. When there's something to announce we will announce it, but right now it's out of our hands.

As to the Street Magic web add-on. As Ancient has mentioned above it contains a lot of material that was left out for space reasons and it is waiting for our production staff to have some time on their schedule to work on it. When its ready it will be posted on the SR4 website as a free download. When that will be I can not say at the moment.

[fistandantilus4....]

I think he was being facetious.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Grinder]

I think he was being facetious.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yup.

[Synner]

I think he was being facetious.

Yup.

I am aware of that. As I said before, it's getting old.

... And now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast: on with Magical Goods.

[nathanross]

As to the Street Magic web add-on. As Ancient has mentioned above it contains a lot of material that was left out for space reasons and it is waiting for our production staff to have some time on their schedule to work on it. When its ready it will be posted on the SR4 website as a free download. When that will be I can not say at the moment.

YAY! Thanks Synner. (Prays to RPG gods for quick release)

[Prime Mover]

Like the idea of magical goods,compounds,unique enchantments. Been fan of creating unique effects and strange artifacts since "Bottled Demon" adventure. Some of new compounds have made for interesting story elements in recent games as well.

[Ancient History]

Spirits of the Sixth World
I swear Synner wrote this intro fiction just to use the term "Cola Wars." But that might just be me.

This section was at the heart of many of the most heated debates (my, I'm being diplomatic) during the development of Street Magic, but also probably the one that saw the largest re-write of existing rules and concepts.

BTW, spot the Penny-Arcade reference in the fluff. Not to mention the vlatch.

Clarifying metaplanar travel and shortcuts was long overdue, in my opinion, though few players seem to take advantage of it. More of them are much more happy with the Attack of Will, which brings back the old method of successfully dealing with a spirit nigh-invulnerable to gunfire.

The big change, natch, is possession, inhabitation, and vessels.

Corps cadavres! I fought for those damn things.

Things you'll note:
No more Ancestor spirits. Now available in Guardian and Guidance flavors.
The descriptions of what spirits look like are actually pretty cool.
Desire reflection gets dusted off from PAoE.
Endowment, believe it or not, started a horrific round of innuendo.
Energy Drain - I hate how the term energy gets misused and abused in RPGs as a whole, but it was nice to get this filled out a little.
Good merges went bye-bye, say hello to flesh forms. Yes, even the writers still get confused on this bit.
Ally spirits don't Aid Enchanting. My bad...
Still have no idea why True Names were differentiated from spirit formula. Meh.
No ghosts, specters, or Wild Hunt. Sniff.

Interesting Fact: Early proposals for the book included bestiaries of various spirit-critters like the fey, the Wild Hunt, wraiths, nomads, and the Man-Of-the-Woods.

Spirit Pacts: I'd hoped for better. Well, maybe not better, just different. I like the idea of Faustian bargains where a shadow spirit sucks the life and Karma out of a hapless victim according to contract. Which you can still totally do-its just the spirit can't offer anything else. Bargaining goes straight out the window-which, to be fair, is more to the advantage of the spirit than the magician. Too many rules lawyers looking for something from nothing.

Permanent banishing, though, is a nice trick, considering how frickin' impossible spirits are to banish otherwise.

[Synner]

I swear Synner wrote this intro fiction just to use the term "Cola Wars." But that might just be me.

Actually, the intro fiction is all Frank Trollman. I did the edit but this one is his baby.

[Prime Mover]

Hahaha I loved the cola wars reference, remembering when it was actually an advertising gimmick when I was a kid.

Penny arcade lost on me, don't know much about it. Saw the Vlatch reference was'nt sure were that came from.

Sort of miss the old metaplane quests with the citadel but I'm not heartbroken, section is good. Leaves me wanting a Metaplane sourcebook.

Drug addicted free spirits LOL.

Living dolls/Cadavres, too much fun.

Ally spirits no enchanting assist not a huge problem out of the gate and of course were still waiting for errata on the binding and sustaining.

Hope unique spirits,fae and others show up sooner or later, in critter book?

Like the idea of spirit pacts involving a give and take that favors the spirit. "Gimme your karma and sign this contract and in return I'll show you to your enemies."

Attacks of will back, already referenced in BBB.

[Grinder]

This section was at the heart of many of the most heated debates (my, I'm being diplomatic) during the development of Street Magic, but also probably the one that saw the largest re-write of existing rules and concepts.

Out of interest (and sorry for OT): how do the writers communicate? Via email or do you have a private forum?

OnT: loved the intro fiction, it's really cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)