[X] My Assistant

[Zhan Shi]

Obligatory preface: This is not intended as an endorsement of racism, fascism, or violence.

But the HP philosophy (as opposed to radical members who join Alamos 20K, Human Nation, et al) does seem to have been unfairly pilloried throughout the history of Shadowrun. I as understand it, at it's core HP dogma is this: the old divisions which have plagued humanity in the past, such as reliogion and skin color, are now irrelevant. We are all brothers in humanity now. Support, protect and defend your fellow (hu)man.

Consider the momentous changes which have taken place in the world's history in Shadowrun canon: a significant percentage of the Earth's population transforms into beings straight out of a Tolkien wet dream. Magic, mages, and spirits (re)appear, wielding strange powers. HMHVV gives rise to ghouls, vampires and other monsters. Dragons and Immortal Elves , who by their own admission have manipulated humanity over the millenia, continue their machinations for global dominance. Megacorps have all but destroyed the concept of nation-state. Nasty things from the Deep Metaplanes, such as insect spirits and shedim, threaten not only life, but the very soul as well. Let's not forget the recent development of tecnomancers and the AI's, whose power and influence could damage the infrastructure on which the little guy depends.

Under these circumstances, it does not seem unreasonable for Joe Average Human to think that "his kind" are under assault, and to desire to form an organisation whose purpose is to protect both himself and his fellow man. Granted, this protective instinct has taken many steps into utter barbarism: Yomi, the napalm strike at New Visions, and the technomancer pogrom, to name but a few. However, I do not feel these actions invalidate the basic premise of the Humanis Policlub: that if humans want to survive and prosper in the Sixth World, they need to forget their petty differences and band together against their common enemies.

An aside about facism...I believe it was in the "Game Information" section of Loose Alliances which said something to the effect that if a PC wanted to play a fascist, he should have his head examined. Nothing similar was said in the Communist section, despite the fact that the world wide death toll from Communism far exceeds anything from the darkest nightmares of the Axis powers.

Here endeth the dissertation. Again, please don't take this as a sign that I support a nasty ideology. Rather, it's just something which has been simmering in my brain for a while, and I thought it might be worth some discussion.

"If I seem to have missed the mark, then please view my efforts charitably...(or something like that)...."
- Dunkelzhan's Last Will And Testament

[Whipstitch]

[R-Caine]

I do believe that a lot of the big anti-humanis sentiment might stem from the fact that they were the front for a huge insect spirit hive/cult. They are also portrayed as a group that uses violence to get their point across. Of course I am sure that not all members of humanis believe that going to the same extreme but they get lumped together (kind of like Muslims post 911).

R-Caine

[djinni]

the HP was also formed out of the KKK, and as there are Orc only and Elf only organizations or nations a human only (HP), tends to be viewed as "white only" and garners negative connotations even if it has nothing to do with the presvious incarnations.
think about it this way, if a minority group starts a club that only allows races of that minority and a majority race makes the same club who gets in trouble?
that appears to be the same theory designed into the humanis policlub's bad image.

[Synner]

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, R-Caine, I'm afraid you're mixing the Policlub with the Universal Brotherhood there.

[Adarael]

HP was never a front for insects. That was the Universal Brotherhood.

You forgot to include: "And that club also gives money to other people to go intimidate, beat up, and kill members of other races, only to deny it later."

Any group which exists for the purpose a marginalizing and killing a group or groups merely for being different in a fashion they cannot control means that they are "bad".

Or to put it a different way, many in Nazi Germany grew to believe they were under attack from Zionists, so they killed the jews.
That's what's bad about that.

Fear which leads to oppression is still oppression.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I'd also say "racism" is different in shadowrun. It's just simply not the same thing as the racism we're all familiar with. The debates on these forums have been done to death about the implications of racial caps on intelligence, but that's obviously not an issue among racial groups in the real world. It's very real in Shadowrun. So to the extent that I think most of us get fed up with stupid people, I think it's natural for most people to get fed up with people that have low mental attributes, and if that tends to be orks and trolls more often than with other metatypes, lazy people are going to jump to conclusions.

And yes, I realize people are going to jump down my throat for being racist against a fictional race now. But I promise, it's ok, because I have tons of troll friends, so I can say these things.

[Kingmaker]

[Adarael]

Well, regardless of how 'stupid' trolls may or may not be - I'm not getting involved in that discussion - the fact remains that we don't endorse removing rights from people with Downs Syndrome or who score low on the SATs. And if you wanna take the route that they should, the HP figures that Elves and Dwarves in the same boat.

It's like the KKK. They've quit telling us blacks are monkeys, and are now telling us they just want white rights. But you know what? I figure it's the same brand of asshole it always has been, with the same agenda. And HP is basically just the KKK all over again. They even dress the same.

[djinni]

[knasser]

This is one of my favourite topics and I don't have time to comment right now! :(

But I could possibly link to a short file I wrote about Humanis: Link.

Forgive it if it's a little rough around the edges. I think it makes several of the points I would make if I had time right now.

-K.

[Whipstitch]

[Mercer]

Orks are human too! (And so are trolls, dwarves, and I guess probably even elves.)

I don't think its unreasonable for Joe Average to feel "his kind" is under assault; or actually, while it may be unreasonable, its not unlikely. Dragons and vampires and guys with horns are a lot for the average human being to accept. (So too are people with vast chunks of their body replaced with machinery, and people that can fly and kill people with their mind, but I guess that's a different argument.)

It seems to me that the Humanis Policlub are saying that the other human expressions (orks, trolls, dwarves and I guess even elves) are different because they look different. Is that any different than a white supremecist saying that other races are different because they look different?

To quote Lrrr from the planet Omicron Persei 8, if I kill this human to harvest his pathetic lower horn, am I any better than a human who would kill this gentle forest ape for its feet? The answer is Yes, but not by enough.

[Cthulhudreams]

[Whipstitch]

A lot of people really hate Heinlein and took him to task for that book and the poorly done movie screens like a bad satire of fascism, or at least that's how my friends and I took it. It doesn't change the fact that the initial bias of shadowtalkers is likely going to be against fascism. How many career criminals do you know of in favor of police states?

[CircuitBoyBlue]

[Dashifen]

[Fuchs]

Humanis is not any better or worse than the Tirs, or any other group that promotes racist ideologies.

[Adarael]

The Tirs suck too, yes.

[martindv]

[Whipstitch]

Talk about exceptions that prove the rule.

[kanislatrans]

"fear leads to anger,anger to hate.hate to suffering , suffering to the dark side" -Yoda-

Humanis is bad because it incites fear. The basis of the HP doctrine is one of controlling the masses through fear and misinformation to gain political power for an elite few. ( not unlike some other organizations I can think of.)

"Is that any different than a white supremacist saying that other races are different because they look different?" -mercer-

white supremacists such as the Christian Identity and KKK don't just say that the other races are different. they claim to be superior to the other races and insist that the other races( or even white people who don't' believe as they do) don't have any rights at all and should be killed or "re-educated" aka made into slaves. this seems to be the same agenda of the Humanis Policlubs , as they basically sprang from the same roots.





:spin: and anyways every one knows the proper way to control the masses is with brain numbing trideo shows and addiction to the spend/spend mindset. :wobble: :wobble: :wobble:

[MaxMahem]

Well in the SR universe the humanis politiclub are 'bad guys.' The club acts as a source of funds, equipment, and personnel to more extremist groups such as Alamo 2000. Whats more the sponsor and support legislation designed to keep non-humans down. They are against meta-humans having the right to vote, vote to cut of funding for the education, and so on. Since meta-humans almost always includes some player characters, and thus they are working to oppress the PCs, they are certianly bad guys (if only indirectly).

I however have much sympathy for them. Because if I was a human in 2070, and wasn't lucky enough to be born mage or technomancer, I would probably join up. I have a rabid hatred towards elves, and am not fond of dwarves either. I've got no real beef with orks, but their birth rates frighten me. Trolls also scare me (for obvious physical reasons).

So march on my human brothers!

[Ryu]

Corporations can be fascist, communal and capitalistic.

The individual has to serve the corporation. The wageslaves work for a share of the collective gain. And most corps follow a capitalistic behaviour towards other corps.


On the humanis angle. The world is divided in two parts. Me and not-me. That is a rather lonely proposition, so I need some people closer to me than others. Lets take those who are a bit more similar to me than others. Lets assume everyone does the same, building a social network based on similarity.

Beat up the others becomes optional. All races will favour politics that favour their kind. If orcs become the dominant race, they will still favour orcs. The idea of equal opportunity will always work against better chances for some. It will certainly not help if the unequal, dumb trolls take all the lowly physical labour jobs people without smarts can take, leaving nothing for dumb and comparativly weak humans.

Smart people don´t need humanis, but they can profit from the idea that humans are better. Dumb humans are threatened, more so since racial politics keep "trogs" downtrodden and angry. The less you have, the more you can benefit from others. Either by building a support network, or by taking what is not yours. Humanis fits that bill.

The idea that equal opportunity creates a better world, a smaller part of which is better than that which could be had by excluding some, is fortunately common. Unfortunately its not the only road.