A Real Life Adept In Action, Poetry In Motion Options

[Critias]

That's why you need to emphasize running, instead of fighting.

Or, alternately, you could join a gym instead of paying out the butt for a martial arts class, if all you want to do is practice running.

[Cain]

Or, alternately, you could join a gym instead of paying out the butt for a martial arts class, if all you want to do is practice running.

Last I checked, martial arts classes were cheaper. But the retention rates at gyms were just as bad.

Anyways, as I've been saying all along, running should be your primary mode of self-defense. Fighting is your last resort.

[hyzmarca]

Try this little experiment. Have a friend throw a quarter at you, and see how often you can catch it. Now, have him throw it at his shoulder, same speed and everything, and see how often you can catch it. In addition to the distance factor, your reactions aren't trained to deal with non-incoming objects.

Don't try that, not without eye protection. A quarter can cut your eyeball.

And you're wrong about the master ninja thing. There is, in fact, a type of martial art that one can apply to sufficient effect to defeat a clan of ninja masters with less than six months of training. One can learn this art at a place called the Thunder Ranch.


I'm going to make a statement, and wish to know if you agree, Cain the the important thing is to retreat towards safety instead of just running away from danger. Simply running away isn't going to work unless what you're running to is less dangerous than what you're running from. You don't even have to get away from the danger so long as you get to a position where it is unlikely to be able to cause you harm.

For example, in the event of a home invasion one might get the kids, retreat to a safe room, call 911, grab a gun, and position everyone in the corner by the door so that the invader won't be able to shoot you from outside the room and will be vulnerable to you during entry.

I would also ask if you'd consider using the terms "retreat" and "disengage" instead of "running" for they do have different connotations. "Running" suggests mindless panicked flight, which probably won't be conducive to safety, due to being mindless and panicked. "Retreat" suggests an intelligently considered tactical decision, which may include everything from flat out running to slowly walking into a busy shop where there would be many witnesses and "disengage" suggests simply removing oneself from the confrontation. The phrase "retreat to" is also very useful. Retreat to safety. Retreat to your vehicle. Retreat to a well lit area with many people. Retreat to your weapon. Always retreat to something good, rather than retreating from something bad. If you don't know what you're retreating to, it could be worse than what you're retreating from.

[Cain]

I'm going to make a statement, and wish to know if you agree, Cain the the important thing is to retreat towards safety instead of just running away from danger.

More or less. If you don't know of a safe place nearby, then distance is your friend. I can't quantify all of the variables in a possible fight, so retreat to safety (or how safe that place is) may or may not be a possibility. However, distance is always there for you.

For example, in the event of a home invasion one might get the kids, retreat to a safe room, call 911, grab a gun, and position everyone in the corner by the door so that the invader won't be able to shoot you from outside the room and will be vulnerable to you during entry.

Here, I disagree. From what I recall reading of the NCIS statistics, your best plan for safety is to Get Out of the House. Call 911 from a neighbor's. If you can't get out, get your kids out and have them make the call. You're many times safer leaving the house than standing and fighting.

[Rad]

[edit]Computer borked, sorry for the repost.[/edit]

[Cain]

I'm sorry, but that appears to be a clone of your earlier post. It's late where I am, could you show me what the differences are, and reply to the responses I already posted? Not trying to sound snippy, I'm just tired.

[psychophipps]

Ultimately, whether people debate something or not is just a question of whether they feel like it at the time. It's not like there's any logic involved.

For myself, I like sparring. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Take the whole intelligent creation vs evolution debate. One side says that it's some divine being that made everything by design and sheer awesomeness and the other side says that a pool of snot and a lightning bolt did the deed. Neither is observable or testable (read: actually scientific) but boy will these people get nasty about the whole affair.

And I'm not a sparring man, myself. Self-defense (hopefully) doesn't involve two people agreeing to terms and warming up before they go at it an an attempt to make things all nicey-nicey and somewhat safe for each other. I prefer the ol' 80-lumens slap in the retinas followed quickly by a 230gr JHP double tap, a poke to the neck followed by a groin or hamstring slash, or a biuji to the eyes, to trapping, to strike with the flashlight to the jaw joint followed a potential takedown.

[Critias]

Anyways, as I've been saying all along, running should be your primary mode of self-defense. Fighting is your last resort.

Yeah, we know that's what you've been saying all along. Otherwise, we wouldn't be disagreeing with you right now.

[Faelan]

The whole point of needing hand to hand combat skills is based on the assumption that the following conditions apply: 1) All attempts to avoid the situation have failed, 2) all attempts to defuse the developing situation have failed, 3) life threatening damage will be inflicted upon you if you do not "do unto others before they do unto you". Attempting to run from the situation will often escalate the level of force in the situation, or bring the situation to a hth combat situation that much faster. It can very often be the worst thing to do. Calm steady movement allows you time to think, plan, and maneuver before the preconditions are met. Running often puts all these time space factors into overdrive, not to mention flooding your system with adrenaline before it is really needed. Once the preconditions for hth combat have been met it is in your best interest to cripple your opponent. If your opponent is crippled he cannot chase you as you run for assistance, or in this case an arresting officer. Self defense instructors often offer the worst advice because it is based on the weak helpless victim model, and that the purpose is to simply buy a meek individual time. Often the techniques are not highly effective and will simply anger a skilled or motivated attacker, resulting in an escalation of force.

Personal experience: I was walking home one night in a transitional neighborhood, at about 0200. Six youths decided to push me into a confrontation. I acted as if I was ignoring them, and made no sudden moves. Calmly walking towards my porch, I interposed vehicles, and trees between myself and them cutting off avenues of approach, and limiting the number of potential attackers. As I walked up the porch this further limited their options, and essentially restricted the number that could attack at once to two, additionally I took the advantage of high ground. As I spun around deliberately the youths realized that I was not easy prey, and began to think twice. Their leader decided to confront me, by attempting to attack me (apparently a beat down was what they were after). I broke his elbow, knee, and ankle in roughly two seconds, and knocked out half his teeth and broke his nose in another second. The blood curdling screams, the blood, the unnatural positions of his arm and leg removed any thought of further confrontation from his friends. As they turned to run, and their friend passed out from the pain, I told them to take their trash with them. It was the last time anyone on my block was ever bothered again.

[Cain]

The whole point of needing hand to hand combat skills is based on the assumption that the following conditions apply: 1) All attempts to avoid the situation have failed, 2) all attempts to defuse the developing situation have failed, 3) life threatening damage will be inflicted upon you if you do not "do unto others before they do unto you". Attempting to run from the situation will often escalate the level of force in the situation, or bring the situation to a hth combat situation that much faster.

Ah, yes, the macho posturing comes out. Fact of the matter is, most self-defense courses don't train you in defusing techniques. Removing yourself from the situation automatically defuses it, since you're not there to be a target anymore.

<snip excessive machismo BS>

And here we go again. Sooner or later in these conversations, someone has to start bragging about what a badass he is, thereby making him head ninja master and everyone else his helpless student mooks. I have no idea what you've been through, or if your story is even a lie. I also don't know what anyone else here has been through. But don't go around posturing, thinking it's going to impress someone.

[Apathy]

Oddly enough considering how dynamically opposed the two of you are, I think you're both right at least some of the time. It's entirely situation-dependant.

• As both of you said, it's almost always better to defuse a situation through talking or leaving before it gets to a confrontation, if you can.
• Intent - Some antagonists are thoroughly committed to attacking you, while others may only lash out because you're nearby/convenient, or percieved as trespassing. In the first case it may be a question of fighting now, versus fighting later. But in many cases running away will allow the opponent his 'victory' without him feeling like he has to go to the trouble of chasing you down. I don't buy the argument that someone who already plans to fight you will want to beat you down harder because you ran than they would if you took the first swing.
• Numbers - If you have a single opponent, there's a chance that striking first might degrade his ability to catch you when you do run. But with multiple opponents attacking any single one gives the rest time to attack back, cut off your escape, whatever. Also, while running may tire you out, it'll tire out the opposition too. When fighting I can only strike one or two assailants at a time, but when running I can make every one of my opponents tire themselves out trying to catch me. Since they won't run equally fast, it'll possibly spread out the attacking group (if I can run long/far/quick enough) so I won't have to fight as many at once.
• Positioning - If you're already surrounded, or your asailant is already within striking (or worse, grappling) distance, then turning to run could expose you to to an attack from behind with little chance of actually getting away. But if I'm more than 5 feet away when I turn to run I've got a decent chance of escaping, unless he's just faster than me. When guns are concerned, if the weapon is already drawn and pointed at you, you've got almost no chance to disarm before he gets a shot off unless you're closer than 3 feet, and at closer than 10 feet you're likely to get hit. At much more than ten feet, against a dodging/moving/running away target, with other distractions and less-than-ideal conditions, an untrained shooter is less likely to get a deadly shot.
• Capability (both yours and theirs) - If I'm faced with a couple drunk 300-pound behemoths, I'm more likely to outrun them than I am to out-fight them. Even more so if they've got weapons of any kind. Similarly, I know a lot more women who can outrun me than those who are likely to land a debilitating blow before I can close with them and bring my strength advantage to bear.

Ultimately, there are too many variables involved to say that any one tactic will work best for all people, or for any one person in all circumstances.

[Faelan]

Sorry if you think that was posturing. It was not. I was simply relating my experience as a counter point. I was in no way attempting to be a "ninja master", nor was I implying anyone was a "student mook". I was simply disagreeing with you about running, it certainly did not warrant the response you gave. Neither did my original points have anything to do with defusing the situation. I was pointing out that there are situations you cannot defuse. You can use every technique in the book to defuse and still have it thrust upon you. When that happens it has nothing to do with machismo or any other testosterone driven bullshit, you will either be prepared or not. If you run in those instances I wish you, and anyone who chooses that option the best of luck.

[JaronK]

For what it's worth, I have a friend who went to Germany when she was younger. While she was there, she was basically an outcast (didn't fully speak the language, didn't look quite right, etc) so she ended up hanging out with the only people that would take her in, the local high school goth crowd. Every day when they walked to the gym (since the school gym was seperate from the main campus) a group of Neo Nazis would throw rocks at them. The first time she asked, she was told they'd been doing that for years... it's just what they did. So the next time they did it, she threw back and charged them. They ran off and scattered, never having had anyone actually fight back at all, and they never did it again (at least not to that group, and not for the remaining 6 months of her stay). So at least in that case, avoidance and diffusion was totally the wrong situation. Sometimes you do have to establish dominance, especially if the person attacking you is just trying to establish their own. Running just continues the pattern.

JaronK

[Critias]

Oddly enough considering how dynamically opposed the two of you are, I think you're both right at least some of the time. It's entirely situation-dependant...

...Ultimately, there are too many variables involved to say that any one tactic will work best for all people, or for any one person in all circumstances.

Which is what I've been saying, too, and you'd think that Critias being the guy taking the moderate stance would be a sign to people that either (a) the End Times are nigh, or (b) there's some truth in it.

[Faelan]

I would say the answer is B) of course that it what I was suggesting in the first place. My whole argument has been that both are useless without the other. Your situational awareness will ultimately dictate the response in any situation.

[Method]

Which is what I've been saying, too, and you'd think that Critias being the guy taking the moderate stance would be a sign to people that either (a) the End Times are nigh, or (b) there's some truth in it.

Ha!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

I laugh only because I very often find myself agreeing with you, Critias.

[psychophipps]

Ah, yes, the macho posturing comes out. Fact of the matter is, most self-defense courses don't train you in defusing techniques. Removing yourself from the situation automatically defuses it, since you're not there to be a target anymore.

Unless they randomly (or not so randomly) run into you later and beat/stab/shoot your ass down (or to death) then. It's happened a lot more than you think, homie. Sometimes (a lot more than you seem to realize) there is a distinct advantage to "taking care of biz" right then and there.

And here we go again. Sooner or later in these conversations, someone has to start bragging about what a badass he is, thereby making him head ninja master and everyone else his helpless student mooks. I have no idea what you've been through, or if your story is even a lie. I also don't know what anyone else here has been through. But don't go around posturing, thinking it's going to impress someone.

The funny thing about this comment is that despite 17+ years of in unarmed and armed combat training, I'm still probably about the last person in a group of 1000 randomly selected citizens that would ever get jumped by anyone by pure genetics. I'm alert (which is really the best self-defense tool you'll ever have), aware of people around me (which just about automatically disqualifies me for most low-end criminal-types), carry myself well, and stand at an athletic 193cm and 105kg. I've literally had girlfriends tell their drunk boyfriends what an asshole I just was to them to have the boyfriend just take one look at me and tell her, roughly the equivalent of, "I'm not messing with that guy. I don't give a damn what he just said to and/or about you".

As for the rest of the comment, I carry a gun, flashlight/impact weapon, knife, and my minimum out-of-house alertness of Condition Yellow so I don't have to run away. I should see it well before it becomes a "run or die" situation, and well, at the risk of sounding like a macho blowhard, I'm not going to run and leave my wife and/or kid behind for some potential psycho to have their way with them. You see, being into fat chicks means that you sometimes can't run away because you'll always out-distance your ol' lady and four month old son in short order.

Of course, if I'm ever being chased by a Shogoth, I won't even have to trip her to make my getaway... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Adarael]

I've always been of the opinion that the best defense is Adamant Skin Technique. I mean, Heavenly Guardian Defense and Flow Like Blood are cheaper, but sometimes you can't dodge far enough away, and sometimes you don't have a ready weapon to parry. So Adamant Skin Technique it is!

Or were we still going back and forth about RL...?

[Apathy]

Can we possibly turn this back to a shadowrun theme? I'm not actually interested in hearing how any of you are '230 pounds of twisted steel and sex appeal' or if you know 37 ways to kill a man with a spoon.

I enjoy martial arts in general, and like to spar. But in the last 30 years or so (since middle school) I've never actually needed to use it in a street encounter. I tend to believe that's true for most normal people who don't go looking for trouble, since today's society (at least in the US) is not that much like a dystopian walk in the Barrens.

What do people think that life would be like for the average middle-class wageslave in 2070? Is Mr Wageslave likely to get mugged on the way to work? Often? Or does that only happen once you've left the protection of your corp life and try to make it on your own in the Barrens?

Most civilians today don't have any martial arts or self defense training. Would that change in 2070? Would the average corp-er make sure he sent little Johnny to Krav Maga class so he'd be able to protect himself from the orc kids on the playground? Would wageslaves tend to have a more combative or more passive mindset compared to now?

[Kanada Ten]

What do people think that life would be like for the average middle-class wageslave in 2070? Is Mr Wageslave likely to get mugged on the way to work? Often? Or does that only happen once you've left the protection of your corp life and try to make it on your own in the Barrens?

Consider the popular PMV, a moving suit of armor that wageslaves drive to work and home in. Probably indicates some level of danger perceived in their life.

Most civilians today don't have any martial arts or self defense training. Would that change in 2070? Would the average corp-er make sure he sent little Johnny to Krav Maga class so he'd be able to protect himself from the orc kids on the playground? Would wageslaves tend to have a more combative or more passive mind set compared to now?

Top of the head things to consider: First, corporate solidarity programs. Many Japanese companies in the 80s would have a group workout at the beginning of each shift, it reduced back injuries and stress, along with supposed team building. Some American companies followed suit, but it never really caught on. However, with Shadowrun's ode to the 80s and violent culture, I think it'd make sense for companies to have similar shift starting rituals that include martial arts. (Also note that many Japanese salarymen in Tokyo carry ceremonial swords, and the knowledge of their use is considered kudos building.) Naturally, we're talking skill levels of 1 or 2, but such widespread would bring forth people disposed to the arts. Something to look at before an extraction.

Second, just how prevalent are skillwires?

Third, AR games and tutorsofts. Does playing Street Fighter XIII, where one must kick and punch and dodge bestow a certain skill level on long term users? Maybe not, but Krav Maga classes can be taken from your living room, with an instructor who can actually see you and motivate you. AR would also make sparring less dangerous.

[Cain]

Unless they randomly (or not so randomly) run into you later and beat/stab/shoot your ass down (or to death) then. It's happened a lot more than you think, homie.

Riiiiight. Random guy mugs you, you give up your wallet and get away, he randomly decides to stalk you and kill you to death. Yup yup yup.

<Snip macho posturing>
You see, being into fat chicks means that you sometimes can't run away because you'll always out-distance your ol' lady and four month old son in short order.

So, you'll stand and fight, exposing them to more danger as they now become nice hostages. You *all* run, and you all get away. If you stand and fight, there's a good chance that you'll become the hostage, and your family will come back to save you. If you run, and fight only as needed to make your escape, you'll be a lot better off.

[JaronK]

Riiiiight. Random guy mugs you, you give up your wallet and get away, he randomly decides to stalk you and kill you to death. Yup yup yup.

More to the point, as in the example I gave... bully types who hang out along your regularly traveled route. In that example, it was a group of neo nazis who hung out on the route kids took to get to the school gym. Other cases might include people in rougher neighborhoods that give kids on their way to school a hard time. Running away encourages more bullying... standing up and fighting rapidly discourages it.

So especially in the case of bullying or dominance behavior, yes, someone will continue to go after you to continue that dominance if you give up.

Or how about an abusive/stalking ex? Do you think that doesn't happen, or that the cops can do anything about it?

What if you have children or friends there with you that you need to protect? Will running away really help if you have to leave them behind to do so?

Do you really not understand that this sort of thing happens, and that running away really might sometimes be a poor option?

JaronK

[Cain]

Running away encourages more bullying... standing up and fighting rapidly discourages it.

Or gets your face beat in. Or escalates matters. You don't honestly believe that you're always going to be able to beat up a bully, do you? You've been reading too many children's novels if you honestly believe that.

Or how about an abusive/stalking ex? Do you think that doesn't happen, or that the cops can do anything about it?

Seen it. All I'll say is, if some of the abuse victims had tried to run instead of fight, some might still be with us today.

What if you have children or friends there with you that you need to protect? Will running away really help if you have to leave them behind to do so?

See my response above. Standing and fighting when you have helpless victims present is stupid.

[Critias]

Guys, can we all just acknowledge that Cain has a different plan than the rest of us might, for situations like this, and we all agree we hope never have to find out which school of thought is right?

We're not going to change his mind, he's just going to respond with "running away is better" no matter what situation is presented, and that doesn't seem likely to change any time soon going by the pattern of recent posts.

[psychophipps]

Riiiiight. Random guy mugs you, you give up your wallet and get away, he randomly decides to stalk you and kill you to death. Yup yup yup.

So, you'll stand and fight, exposing them to more danger as they now become nice hostages. You *all* run, and you all get away. If you stand and fight, there's a good chance that you'll become the hostage, and your family will come back to save you. If you run, and fight only as needed to make your escape, you'll be a lot better off.

Seriously, Cain, if you're not familiar with the methodology of the modern criminal element, you seriously need to shut the hell up. No, really.

Burglaries and/or robberies after a mugging are quite common. You see, you just gave them your address, probably your phone number, some credit cards more often than not, and any number of other information sources that tell them about your job, socio-economic status, and the people you meet regularly. Let's say you have the business card of a gun shop in your wallet. You just told them that breaking into your house will probably get them some guns. A quick check of your debit card and/or credit cards tells them about how much money you make to determine if your place is worth burglarizing or robbing. A quick credit check with any of this info tells them if your car is worth carjacking and the probable routes you take from your home to work. In otyher words, you just handed some random junky FUCK enough info to bury yourself with and he just might "know a guy" who can rape you with it.

And you obviously have no idea about the typical response a mugger has seeing a "victim" suddenly end up with a gun. It certainly isn't "CHARGE!" or "Take them all hostage!", fer chrisakes.