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> the rights of SINners, Lonestar, searches and you!
djinni
post Jan 23 2008, 01:13 PM
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what rights do the Citizens have in the world of 4th edition shadowrun.
can they still refuse to be searched like you can today?
do actual trials happen months or years after being arrested?
can lonestar just invade your PAN without asking to see what you have?
is intercepting wireless communication considered the same as "wiretapping?"

how old/what style does a firearm have to be for a criminal SIN to be able to own it.
what ware is legal for a criminal SIN to have?

Essentially these will vary from game to game of course depending on the view of the star, but I would gather they are not too far from normal. and most runners won't ever have to deal with them.
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Backgammon
post Jan 23 2008, 01:49 PM
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I imagine it's pretty much the same as today, except the Star "bends" the rules a lot more to convict those they "know" are guilty. And there are a LOT more cops on the take, too.

So basically, you have all the typical rights to protect you, but under the right circumstances, like say there keeps being circumstantial evidence of you being at crime scenes, eventually you will get framed by the cops so they can take you down (plant stuff on you, disregard wiretapping restrictions and worry about it later, etc).

I don't kow about guns, I assume NO GUNS for criminal SINs (I mean, come on), but they can have Legal cyber like anyone else.

Why do you think most runners never have to deal with searches and rights? If the Star catches you for something smallish, and your fake SIN holds up, you have all your normal rights, and that will be very handy to prevent the cops from figuring out your connection to bigger crimes.
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FriendoftheDork
post Jan 23 2008, 03:36 PM
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I'm thinking along the lines of Backgammon as well. If you're a citizen of UCAS, or have a SIN from a nation or corp that gives you most of the same rights in UCAS territory, you will get most of the rights we have today.

I guess that means no searches without probable cause, a maximum of 72 hours(?) detention without a trial. They probably need permission to wire(less)tap your data, or at least probable cause again. The nature of abundant and easy hacking makes it necessary that LS and even CorpSec have great leway in tracking down suspected hackers and even invading their commlinks to gather evidence or protect their intellectual property.

LS have the right to access your SIN at any time, but probably not look at your Porn Sims, unless they have reason to believe that you have illegal programs or an illegally modified Sim Module.

And any Sammie walking down the street with suspcious SMG bulges in his his Lined Coat can probably be required to show his "items."

But remember, the Star doesen't male the rules, it's the politicians (and their corporate sponsors/lobbyists) that does. Rules will be in theory very similar to today's law, with a few changes that look minor on paper but can have great repercussions on some individual and favor corps.

If the Star bend/break the rules too much some watchdogs will notice and they risk loosing their deal to another sec group.

Criminal SINners have very few rights, and probably can't own licences for any restricted items, vote, recieve free medical service (if any) or social security. The only benefit is that the Star can't just kill you as you're considered a (meta)human being. Well, unless they don't get caught ;)
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Ravor
post Jan 23 2008, 05:39 PM
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In theory a SINner has a limited set of rights by today's standards (After all, I'm fairly certain that the Sixth World employment contracts would be considered illegal today.), but in reality if the SINner in question only has as many rights as his wallet can buy, a poor SINner isn't much better off then a poor SINless.

As for wiretapping, searches, ect ... IF Lonestar even needs search warrents in the first place then they are probably very easy and quick to get, perhaps even handled by an Agent.
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Backgammon
post Jan 23 2008, 06:17 PM
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In any case, remember, it's not what Lone Star can do, it's what Lone Star can admit to in a court.

Not cause they can't use the wiretap/searches/etc as evidence during trial that they won't wiretap/search/etc you so the detectives can get a better idea of what you are up to. Sure, it's against your rights, and they can't arrest you for finding that PAC under your coat, but now they know a lot more about you. As long as no lawyer or human rights activist is around, who cares?

However, as a caveat to that, 2070 society is extremely video surveilled. The Star has to be careful about playing by the book, because they are almost guaranteed to be video taped by a few passer-by, which can be as bad as you having your lawyer or friendly activist with you.

Take Manhattan, for example, where people have taken a habit of YouTubing their entire lives. Every inch of that island is probably being taped by a few people at any given time. So the cops have to be reeeeal by the book over there. Fortunatly, as Manhattan is basically a police state, the book has many many pages so they can legally rape you pretty easily.
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djinni
post Jan 23 2008, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon)
I don't kow about guns, I assume NO GUNS for criminal SINs (I mean, come on), but they can have Legal cyber like anyone else.

guns are only considered controlled items from a certain period of time.
for example register ex convicts can own fire and carry black powder firearms regardless of what they load then with as long as a premade shell cannot be loaded (has to be muzzle loaded).
so would a convict in 2071 be allowed to own say a breach load shotgun from 1970?
it doesn't even take ammo you can buy anymore.

its looking more and more like the rights of people are only as strong as the public eye. everyone in power is corrupt and you can't trust anyone...wiretaps and ''probable cause '' are probably just face value. 90% of cases that make trial started with probable cause search you think?
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Ravor
post Jan 23 2008, 06:24 PM
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My answer would be no, Criminal SINners aren't allowed any firearms, no matter what timeperiod they are from, partly because its easier then detremining the DV of ancient firearms and also because I imagine that the various tribes in the Z-Zones are making and using primative firearms.
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