"Fix" to Technomancers - Dumpshock Forums

"Fix" to Technomancers, So, if their brain is a comlink...

Cardul View Member Profile	Jan 24 2008, 12:03 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006	I was just thinking: if a Technomancer's brain is effectively a commlink, and they have some sort of set up to access their normal comlink... Why not allow Technomancers to "load" programs from their Commlink, limited by their Living Persona's respons, just as a normal Commlink persona is? that way, Complex Forms would still matter(as they would not count as Programs).Maybe make doing so require a Resonance+Compiling roll, and resisting Fading? Or, maybe just allow it to be automatic. That way, it is not REALLY making some sort of elaborate house rule, s it is stated that Technomancers need Commlinks for storage, it just kind of using the Edit Complex Form in a creative manner..

Ryu View Member Profile	Jan 24 2008, 02:30 PM Post #2
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	I just saw that the "support operation" service is not limited in any way. So compiled sprites can replace most CFs. You basically need: Analyse Armor Attack Blackout (ECCM (as rigger)) (Encrypt (if houseruled)) Exploit Spoof Stealth Everything else can be handled by sprites. And 7-9 CFs at chargen are possible. TM 5 + Resonance 40 + Tasking 40 + Hardware 1 + CFs 35 + Cracking 40 = 164 BP is still not funny at 400 BP, but nothing will stop you in the matrix. Compile sprite rating 5 (type you have spec. for), support Stealth. Lasts long enough for hacking on the fly. One could try to support Attack/Blackout in Cybercombat. Offensive DP 14 at base DV 10 is not funny either, but this time for the opposition.

djinni

Jan 24 2008, 03:50 PM

Post #3

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QUOTE (Ryu)

I just saw that the "support operation" service is not limited in any way. So compiled sprites can replace most CFs.

perhaps this slow dorfy rigger is missing something, but...
why don't you just thread the CF's you need at chargen instead of buying the complex forms?

Raij View Member Profile	Jan 24 2008, 03:59 PM Post #4
Target Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,811	Threaded CFs are sustained just like spells. Each threaded CF imposes a -2 penalty to all tests. Then of course there is fading to consider.

Dashifen

Jan 24 2008, 06:21 PM

Post #5

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QUOTE (Raij)

Threaded CFs are sustained just like spells. Each threaded CF imposes a -2 penalty to all tests. Then of course there is fading to consider.

My TM characters could routinely buy off the drain, and fading only has a -2 to using other complex forms, not the one that's being threaded. As a result, the idea has more merit than it appears at first.

Ryu View Member Profile	Jan 24 2008, 08:30 PM Post #6
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	Have you a rules quote for exempting the threaded CF from the -2 DP mod? Makes sense, but not finding anything about that made me discard that option. That would actually make artfully played TMs extremly powerful instead of "lacking".

Momijizukamori

Jan 24 2008, 09:08 PM

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QUOTE (Ryu)

Have you a rules quote for exempting the threaded CF from the -2 DP mod?

Makes sense, but not finding anything about that made me discard that option. That would actually make artfully played TMs extremly powerful instead of "lacking".

From the website FAQ:

QUOTE

Does threading require an action? Does the -2 modifier from sustaining a threading affect all actions, including use of that complex form?

The act of threading itself requires no action -- but the complex form being threaded does. Threaded complex forms must also be sustained, as noted. The -2 modifier for sustaining does not apply to use of that threaded complex form, but it does apply to all other actions the technomancer makes.

djinni

Jan 24 2008, 09:30 PM

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QUOTE (Raij)

Threaded CFs are sustained just like spells. Each threaded CF imposes a -2 penalty to all tests. Then of course there is fading to consider.

even if you had to sustain multiples a sprite can sustain it for you releasing you of the -2 mod?

Dashifen View Member Profile	Jan 24 2008, 09:59 PM Post #9
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	Registered sprites can sustain threaded forms similar to bound spirits sustaining a spell, yes. One task is equal to the sprite's rating in Combat Turns that it sustains the form.

JBlades View Member Profile	Jan 24 2008, 10:46 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 263 Joined: 18-October 03 From: Cal Free State Member No.: 5,734	I've recently been thinking of letting Technos have all common use programs at Resonance, and then having them buy hacking programs like spells, i.e. you pay 3BP for it and can use it at Resonance. Threading is then used for temporarily boosting them over Resonance rating, with fading just like spell drain. You'd still have to sustain the thread, of course, as mentioned.

djinni

Jan 24 2008, 11:25 PM

Post #11

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QUOTE (JBlades)

I've recently been thinking of letting Technos have all common use programs at Resonance, and then having them buy hacking programs like spells, i.e. you pay 3BP for it and can use it at Resonance. Threading is then used for temporarily boosting them over Resonance rating, with fading just like spell drain. You'd still have to sustain the thread, of course, as mentioned.

if you do that you should either make then resist fading each time they use a CF, or make them roll (just like casting a spell) to see how good the rating is "this time." allowing them to just "get them all" puts the clever characters in a much higher bracket over hackers.

Xel

Jan 25 2008, 02:19 AM

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QUOTE (djinni)

if you do that you should either make then resist fading each time they use a CF, or make them roll (just like casting a spell) to see how good the rating is "this time." allowing them to just "get them all" puts the clever characters in a much higher bracket over hackers.

Does not!

(Nya nya)

djinni

Jan 25 2008, 04:17 AM

Post #13

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QUOTE (Xel)

Does not!

(Nya nya)

well there's an informed opinion.

Cardul

Jan 25 2008, 05:47 AM

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QUOTE (JBlades)

I've recently been thinking of letting Technos have all common use programs at Resonance, and then having them buy hacking programs like spells, i.e. you pay 3BP for it and can use it at Resonance. Threading is then used for temporarily boosting them over Resonance rating, with fading just like spell drain. You'd still have to sustain the thread, of course, as mentioned.

*hmmms* That does seem to make sense. After all, the common use programs aren't actually used for much..you are not typically going to roll to transfer stuff to your commlink, etc.

Perhaps combining that with 'loading' programs from the Commlink? Though, I would likely not say "all" common use, but "all common use in the main book." Not like I expect any new programs in Unwired, but you never know.

Probably a better solution would be do a Common Use Complex Form, that covers all those Common Use Programs? That way learning all the COmmon Use programs does cost something?

JBlades

Jan 25 2008, 06:17 AM

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QUOTE (Cardul)

Probably a better solution would be do a Common Use Complex Form, that covers all those Common Use Programs? That way learning all the Common Use programs does cost something?

The inspiration for the rule is the fact that for old otaku, the equivalent of common use programs were skills, not Forms, so it's roughly equal to what otaku used to be in 3rd. This is a good idea, though, I like it and it's not too expensive. Realistically, however, you are already buying up Resonance, so I just looked at it as a folded in cost. Plus, a Techno that doesn't spend 200 BP on mental stats and leave himself in roughly the physical shape of an anorexic bum fight victim is practically useless already. Do they really need 1 more place they have to put 3 points? :)

@djinni: Thought of that, but all hackers can get all the programs they want at the max level they can use for a number of BPs equal to a Techno getting like 4 programs, so it's not really an advantage, is it? It is, in fact, simply less gimped. ;)

Having them roll to resist Fading each time they load a program is a bit much, I think. They're already at a disadvantage because there's nothing between their brain and matrix damage. If you beat a hacker, the hacker has to reboot. If you beat a Techno, he has to get to the hospital. Fair enough, I think.

Ryu

Jan 25 2008, 10:55 AM

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QUOTE (Xel @ Jan 25 2008, 04:19 AM)

QUOTE (djinni @ Jan 24 2008, 06:25 PM)

if you do that you should either make then resist fading each time they use a CF, or make them roll (just like casting a spell) to see how good the rating is "this time." allowing them to just "get them all" puts the clever characters in a much higher bracket over hackers.

Does not!

(Nya nya)

Does.

(Response) 5 + Sprite Service 5 + Conservative Threading 2 = CF step 12

Cardul

Jan 25 2008, 03:06 PM

Post #17

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QUOTE (JBlades)

QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 24 2008, 10:47 PM)

Probably a better solution would be do a Common Use Complex Form, that covers all those Common Use Programs? That way learning all the Common Use programs does cost something?

The inspiration for the rule is the fact that for old otaku, the equivalent of common use programs were skills, not Forms, so it's roughly equal to what otaku used to be in 3rd. This is a good idea, though, I like it and it's not too expensive. Realistically, however, you are already buying up Resonance, so I just looked at it as a folded in cost. Plus, a Techno that doesn't spend 200 BP on mental stats and leave himself in roughly the physical shape of an anorexic bum fight victim is practically useless already. Do they really need 1 more place they have to put 3 points? :)

You know...

Why do Complex forms have ratings? Wouldn''t it be simpler to just do:

Complex Forms always have a "Rating" equal to the Technomancer's Resonance.
Common Use programs all count as one Complex Form.
Complex Forms cost 2 BP each.

I am sure someone would say that that messes with the whole "Skill+Program Rating" formula used for things, but really, for technomancers, it would become "Skill+Resonance" for their complex forms.

Combine this with the 1 BP per rating of the Sprite, instead of "services owed," since no-where other then at chargen do sprites have a limited number of services, and I think that this would make Technomancers alot more viable at chargen...and keeps to the criteria I have always bvelieved if you are going to House Rule: keep it simple, and as close to existing rules as you can.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jan 25 2008, 04:20 PM Post #18
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Don't make me quote my matrix house-rules again. ;-) 'Cause nobody wants to see more matrix house rules posted on these boards. Mr T pities fools who post matrix house rules. ........Man, what the f#&$ is wrong with me today? I am in a strange mood. Dumpshock beware.

Ryu View Member Profile	Jan 25 2008, 04:32 PM Post #19
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309	Who are you, and where is Moon-Hawk? ;)

darthmord

Jan 25 2008, 05:16 PM

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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

Don't make me quote my matrix house-rules again. ;-) 'Cause nobody wants to see more matrix house rules posted on these boards. Mr T pities fools who post matrix house rules.

........Man, what the f#&$ is wrong with me today? I am in a strange mood. Dumpshock beware.

Pfft! I dare you, no... double dog dare you to post your matrix house rules.

:P

Moon-Hawk

Jan 25 2008, 05:30 PM

Post #21

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QUOTE (darthmord)

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 25 2008, 11:20 AM)

Don't make me quote my matrix house-rules again. ;-) 'Cause nobody wants to see more matrix house rules posted on these boards. Mr T pities fools who post matrix house rules.

........Man, what the f#&$ is wrong with me today? I am in a strange mood. Dumpshock beware.

Pfft! I dare you, no... double dog dare you to post your matrix house rules.

:P

I don't want to hijack another person's thread unnecessarily.
They've been discussed here, here, here, and originally here, as well as a few other places. Make sure you look in the spoilers. These threads should address the common questions. For reference, the current incarnation of the rules is:

[ Spoiler ]

1) All hacking tests are done using Attribute + Skill: This is consistent with the core mechanic. Ex: Logic + Hacking
2) All Common Use and Hacking programs are effectively free. Common Use programs probably come with most OS. For Hacking programs, in SR4 software piracy is the rule, not the exception. Legality is still a factor. Attempting a task without the correct program loaded in memory is a -4 penalty, as per the normal penalty for attempting a task without appropriate tools.
3) Program ratings for Common Use and Hacking programs are irrelevant and gone. Note that it is still important to track which programs are in active memory, since this can still cause Response degradation. Whenever a task calls for a program rating, use System instead.
4) Pirated OS are also available basically for free. These options are restricted to the options listed in the book, however. Non-standard OS must be obtained normally, i.e. through availability and at normal cost.
5) To compensate for lower costs of not buying programs, all commlinks have their cost multiplied by their Response rating. Cheap commlinks are still cheap, but a deluxe model still costs a significant number of BP, although still not as much as before.
6) Technomancers â€“ Use Resonance + Skill.
7) Technomancers â€“ CF cost the same as spells. 3BP or 5 karma.
8) Technomancers â€“ Threading still adds dice to the use of any CF. If the Technomancer has that CF, it adds dice to the test. If the Technomancer does not have the CF, extra dice will help to offset/overcome the standard -4 penalty. (see rule 2)
9) Technomancers â€“ Threading drain is physical if the number of dice added exceeds Resonance / 2 (rounded down). (Resonance/2 was used instead of Resonance because Program/Complex Form rating is no longer part of the pool, thus the technomancer is starting with a â€œfullâ€? pool of Resonance + Skill, so the effect had to be scaled down) The technomancer can forego rolled successes when threading for lesser effect but lesser drain, if desired.

You asked. If you have questions, use an old thread, start a new thread, or PM me, I don't want to hijack another thread with this.

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