 Seriously Pissed Off Yaks, What is the runner team in for? |
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 Jan 30 2008, 01:46 AM
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#201
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
The GM may stat up his own mooks but then they would not be canon. And RAW only states that Professional Rating controls which how the Grunts are classified, if you want Rating 1 Grunts statted like Tir Ghost, the GM may do it in accordance to RAW. Hence my adherence to canon, once you use RAW, the field opens up so wide, it really isn't much to discuss anymore.
I have stated my view of who has the first strike. You disagree. The underlying fundamental of the situation has changed or will change once the runners escalate, hence they have the first strike capability. And the willingness to die gives the runners as much as or more than the situational modifiers that the yaks have. Seriously once we move into the realm of situational modifiers we are talking about GM discretion again. And to take your chiphead example, every job that a runner gets is one job that another runner won't get. Every job has a target and that target is in direct opposition to the runners. |
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Jan 30 2008, 01:55 AM
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#202
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't see what bearing this has on the situation.
no, it doesn't. willingness to die only means that you are able to utilize your full potential in pursuit of your goals. if your full potential is not enough to achieve your goals, then your willingness to die is irrelevant. i don't see what GM discretion has to do with the argument.
nothing i've seen in canon suggests to me that shadow work is in such short supply that runners frequently have to fight over getting jobs. as far as direct competition, yes, the runners are in direct competition against their target for the duration of the job. that's completely different from OC syndicates, which are in direct competition with the same enemies--each other--every day of every week of every year. runners only need to think in terms of doing one job at a time. they don't have to think in terms of how a given job will affect them, their friends, or their enemies. they don't have to sustain an ongoing effort against a lasting foe; they only need to formulate one quick hit at a time against one foe at a time. |
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Jan 30 2008, 02:35 AM
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#203
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
1) Everything to do with the situation. Since Pro Rating does not control Attributes other than Edge, you can possibly stat the Pro 0 Grunts to be Ultimate NPCs with only Group Edge of 0 and by RAW, you would not be wrong.
2) Situational modifiers are determined by the GM. If influence/money/etc are situational modifiers, then concievably "willingness to die" is also a situational modifier. 3) The runners are always on the job. Whether there is retibution for a recent run, or a run that they did before they retired, they are always on the job and even more so then OC, they can never really retire. |
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Jan 30 2008, 03:48 AM
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#204
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, you could do that. i don't see why you would.
even if one grants that a willingness to die somehow imparts greater ability in the realm of strategic planning, realistically it's not going to be enough to overcome the huge advantages the Yaks have.
being on the job is different from, as i said, maintaining a sustained effort against a lasting foe. the main difference is that once a runner is finished with a contract, he doesn't have to worry about the target's next move unless that move is against the runner specifically. the runner's scope is limited, with regards to the target. |
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Jan 30 2008, 07:14 AM
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#205
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
If you want to see things in terms of situational modifiers, then I think it's without doubt that being willing to die will grant a bonus to your strategy roll (or whatever). Being able to ignore the consequences of certain actions opens up a vast additional array of additional tactical options along. Same goes for willingness to be identified, willingness to be arrested and all the other things that presumably rate lower than dieing. But for me the issue of GM discretion was already a given and didn't need to be debated. What I have been arguing is (a) what is realistic and (b) what is good for the game - i.e. how GM discretion should be exercised. Seattle is a big city. The PCs could (and apparently have) hole up in any number of places that the Yakuza will be unlikely to find them. And if they achieve that, then their capacity to damage the Yakuza exceeds the Yakuza's ability to absorb it. A small, skilled group with explosives and firearms can wreak havoc on a military force that operates openly. They can certainly wreak havoc on a criminal organization that operates secretively. The Yakuza have two good counters that I see. One is to go to ground - they should be able to find some reasonably good hiding places. Two - sending spirits across the city to find the PCs or possibly divining magic to learn where the PCs will strike next. The PCs apparently are covering number one quite well through having already captured members in the loop: Going to ground entirely kind of cedes victory to the PCs as it renders the ability of the Yakuza to operate as an actual organisation inert. They are essentially fugitives at that point. I do, however, like the idea of the Yakuza in their sharp suits, with all their flash, crowding into the little squat of some old seeress in Puyallup to ask where the PCs will next strike, |
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Jan 30 2008, 07:28 AM
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#206
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i used the modifier analogy because it was handy, and because i knew toturi--being a truly dedicated rules lawyer--would grasp it instantly. don't read too much into it. as i've said, the opportunities that open up when you stop discounting strategies that would lead to your own death are not enough to overcome the relatively fantastic amounts of power available to the Yaks.
untrue, because the Yaks don't have to go around looking. all they have to do is post a decent reward, and the entire city will turn against the runners. hell, post it on ShadowSea and other runner message boards. any runner worth his salt would turn over the PCs in a heartbeat.
exactly the opposite. the runners face a much more difficult challenge for the simple reason that the Yaks are secretive. the runners have no specific knowledge of important Yak holdings. they might know a few hangouts for low-end Yak soldiers; they might have even heard rumors that the Yaks own this bar or that restaurant. they're not going to know where the Yaks keep anything of real value--the money, the drugs, the weapons shipments, the important Yak lieutenants. in order to hit the Yaks where it hurts, they have to find where it hurts. but they can't do that, because everyone who likes them is either dead or in hiding--and everyone else is gunning for the PCs because of the fat reward the Yaks have put out. aside from that, the runners have no real way to resupply. as noted, all of their contacts are dead or in hiding. they could try to stock up by looting Yaks they kill, but there's a catch-22 there: they can go after the Yaks who aren't expecting it, who will be lightly armed--and therefore won't net the runners much in the way of resupply. or, they can go for the Yaks who are more prepared--and who will therefore have a much better chance of killing or seriously injuring the runners, and who will in any case require greater expenditures of ammo and other supplies to take down. |
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Jan 30 2008, 07:57 AM
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#207
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
This is going in circles. I'll simply restate my reasoning, then I am done with the canon/RAW nitpicking.
1. I assume the runners are not the best runners of the world, but that there are numerous NPC runners who are equally skilled. If you assume that no NPCs exists that match the PCs for skills, abilities and gear, then that's an entirely different campaign than what I am talking about. 2. I assume the Yakuza in Seattle (even without backing from MCT) has enough money on hand to hire several runner teams and contacts and putting out bounties without feeling the loss. If in your campaign the Yakuza (even with backing from MCT) can't afford to hire top runners without hurting, then again we're not on the same page. 3. I assume that the vast majority of the runners, informants, fixers and other denizens of the Shadows work for money, and, while not willing to die, will risk a lot for a very big reward. 4. I also assume that while the mafia or the triads will happily exploit any weakness the yakuza will show in this conflict, they are not about to openly support the runners, or otherwise risk a full-out gang war over this, instead preferring to simply capture a bigger slice more of the underworld business while the yakuza are occupied without leaving the "business as usual" area. They might even be willing to trade the runners to the yakuza, in exchange for money. Based on those assumptions, I come to the conclusions that the runners would be facing not just the Yakuzas themselves, but a lot - a whole lot - of equally skilled runners/bounty hunters hired by the yakuza, and a town's worth of informants and contacts trying to get a cut of the reward. Depending on the size of Seattle's shadowrunner scene, there might be several, partially overlapping networks of contacts working against them just from the local teams hired to go after them - and all with the runners' own contact network ripped apart already. Under those circumstances, I do not see how the runners have much of a chance to survive, or even do much damage. Maybe one or two spectacular strikes, but nothing that will really hurt the yakuza before they end up dead - in a way a bit like the RAF terrorists when they attacked Germany in the 70s for the first time, just with less popular support, and with less legal hurdles getting in the way of finding them. |
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Jan 30 2008, 08:20 AM
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#208
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well I did say "if you want to see things in terms of situational modifiers." Situational modifiers are only ways of representing descriptive circumstance which is the level I was talking at originally anyway. In either way of looking at things - quantified as dice or left abstract, I believe my point still stands. You say that opportunities that come up when you waive consequences are not enough to overcome the power advantage that the Yakuza have. I say that they really are. Obviously we can both run the Yakuza in our games however we choose, but I think it is realistic to accept that they are vulnerable to the PCs. Would you deny that even a military force, operating openly, i.e. guns at the ready, denying civillians free travel, etc. is still vulnerable to dedicated people with explosives or firearms? How much less then a criminal organisation operating within society? The Yakuza's strongest defense is anonymity and as we'll see, that isn't going to save them.
You're portraying the Yakuza as both all-pervasive and uncaring about people's awareness of them. They can't run ads on the 6 o'clock news every night. How do they get the word out on the nicely swept streets of Bellevue? Or even little suburbs outside Seattle? It's a small shout in a busy station. Quite honestly, you can walk out of the range of the Yakuza's informants and influence, let alone drive. The PCs will always be vulnerable to the chance encounter - and if they were ordinary people concerned for long term consequences, then they'd be living in fear of that. But they're not and they wont be. Short of GM fiat - the doorman at the hotel is nephew to a Yakuza etc - it's not unreasonable for the PCs to hide from the Yakuza through relocation and we haven't even started on the serious precautions the PCs could take and apparently are taking - nanopaste disguises, Physical Mask spells, false ids and certified cred sticks. You posit a game where PCs are able to hide from the police yet can be instantly found by organised crime. That to me is unrealistic.
I've covered this several times now. It is plain from what's been said that the PCs already have good leads on the Yakuza through (a) good starting knowledge as figures in the local underworld themselves and (b) capture of one or more Yakuza members and surveillance.
I don't know why you accord the Yaks the ability to withstand violent attacks and targetting but take for granted that other individuals and groups can be wiped out by them with impunity. Everyone has friends and if the Yakuza hit someone for talking or associating with the PCs, then that's just more enemies for them to deal with. Enemies who are themselves part of gangs, syndicates, arms rings, bouncer cliques, whatever. Because these are the sorts that the criminal PCs are likely to be talking to. If your response to finding you have enemies is to make more and powerful ones, then you're not going to be Oyaban for long.
No. As stated by you, all contacts are dead or in hiding. You seem to have this idea that illegal trades and contacts are listed as friends on MySpace 2070. People who sell illegal firearms to hardened criminals are not usually prevented by worrying if some other faction will object. Sure, if it's a dealer with Yakuza ties, then no. But if it's not, or someone with Vory or Mafia ties or an independent, they're not going to care. If someone is willing to contravene UCAS law, go against Lone Star, then they're willing to deal with someone that the Yaks have a grudge with. People who sell guns to criminals do so in the expectation that those guns will be used on people who don't want to be shot. They deal with it. For every arms dealer you find that would say "no, not crossing the Yaks," I'll find you three that don't give a shit. If the Yaks inspired such fear that no-one would sell guns to people they didn't like, then they would rule Seattle down to the last nut and bolt. But they don't. And likely they'll never know who sold the guns to the PCs. And the PCs already have guns and a fair quantity of explosives by the sounds of it. These are PCs, remember. All they may need is to restock some bullets and I hope you're not telling me the PCs can't get them. I mentioned the film Payback earlier which is in the area of this sort of discussion and also very much recommended as a Shadowrun sort of film. But I also definitely recommend for some perspective on this a film called The Long Good Friday. It's quite old and deals with a London gangster who rips off the IRA. When he delivers the line: "IRA? Fuck the IRA," you know that things are not going to go well for him. The story of organised crime meeting a paramilitary force (and losing) is grim stuff. -K. |
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Jan 30 2008, 08:35 AM
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#209
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
For the most part, Fuchs is saying what I agree with (and what I've been saying for a while on this thread). So consider this a "+1" or whatever to all his points. If the Yakuza is a bunch of bumbling retards and the Shadowrunners can walk all over any given organized crime syndicate in your game, well, good for your game. Have fun. You are, I suppose, every bit as right, or wrong, as others of us.
The problems with the films you suggest is that (1) the players aren't Mel Gibson and should not be expected to pull off all the crazy shit Mel Gibson pulls off, and (2) the Yaks (and all the other organized crime groups as presented in Shadowrun) are both organized crime organizations and vengeful paramility groups. There's your "grim stuff." |
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Jan 30 2008, 08:38 AM
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#210
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
If the yaks are running around with their hair on fire trying to kill some runners, isn't it in the very best interests of the vory/mafia/triads/whoever else to slide them some assistance on the down low.
'Cause while the yaks are busy running around with their enforcers after tough guys with guns, the Vory or whoever can go after softer targets, like dealer networks or illegal brothels, and make some market share before the targets get squashed. |
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Jan 30 2008, 08:50 AM
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#211
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
how do they get word to the streets of Bellevue? simple, they have their dealers talk to the mid-level corporate types who live there, who buy drugs from them. moreover, if the PCs walk out of range of the Yaks, they've walked out of range of their ability to keep tabs on the Yaks. the Yaks aren't going to sit still and wait, they're going to be on the move, taking precautions and going on the offensive. if the PCs can't keep up, they're going to find themselves outmaneuvered.
i don't see much evidence of that in the original posts. yes, they interrogated the Yak squad that was sent after the PCs, and got the name of the guy who ordered the strike. yes, they've got a guy who doesn't like Yaks--that probably implies a certain level of intimacy with their operations, but if he thinks that all Yaks are animals it's probably not that intimate. so, yeah, they have enough information to wipe out anybody directly involved in the initial strike against the PCs. but what they're apparently planning is much, much wider in scope. they're talking about taking out the oyabun--one of the three (or is it two, now) top Yaks in Seattle, possibly the entire northwest. i spent four years in the Army as a signal support systems specialist; that in no way prepares me to take on the 2nd Infantry.
it's simple: the Yaks are bigger. compare a Little Debbie snack cake to one of the big birthday cakes you can buy at the grocery store. with the snack cake, if you take a big bite, half the cake is gone. with the birthday cake, the same size bite doesn't significantly reduce the amount of cake remaining. i'm not denying that the PCs can get themselves a mouthful of cake, i'm saying that the amount of cake they can consume is insignificant compared to the amount of cake that exists. and that if they try to hard to eat the whole cake, they're going to bite off more than they can chew. man, i really like this analogy.
i'm not just talking about objecting--though they might object if they knew that the last three gun dealers the PCs worked with were executed messily by the Yaks, specifically for the crime of selling guns to the PCs. but it's also a matter of economics: a gun dealer can make a few thousand selling guns to the PCs, or he can make a few thousand more and earn a favor from a Yak liuetenant by calling the Yaks with the PCs' location. |
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Jan 30 2008, 08:58 AM
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#212
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
I'd like to ask people who think the yakuza will lose one question: If the yakuza, with all their money, and backed by MCT, will lose a struggle with a single team of runners, would a corp lose such a struggle as well?
Think about it, and then think about the consequences if you say "yes". I'll give you a hint: "Protection racket - pay the team x Millions, or get destroyed, Corp!" |
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Jan 30 2008, 09:29 AM
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#213
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Canonically 1 man with a huge supply of money took down a AA corp and almost took out a AAA corp
It took the combined actions of the corporate court to prevent that you were saying? |
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Jan 30 2008, 09:35 AM
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#214
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
So, okay. Here's a question for all the "Yaks lose" guys.
Why aren't Shadowrunner teams all over the world routinely overthrowing organized crime syndicates if it's so easy for 4-5 guys to do exactly that? How do organized criminal groups exist in your game worlds? Or gangs, for that matter? |
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Jan 30 2008, 09:42 AM
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#215
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
There's a slight difference between a shadowrunner team (you know, those guys who risk life and limb for some money) and someone with "a huge supply of money". And, ironically, I have been saying numerous times that the Yakuza's main advantage is their money. Of course, if your runners have the money ressources to rival the yakuza, or even a AA corp, then we're - again - talking about different things. |
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Jan 30 2008, 12:16 PM
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#216
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
But the proportion is right. Art/runners is about the same as AAA/yakuza gumi. |
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Jan 30 2008, 12:19 PM
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#217
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
I disagree. But then, I don't play a game where the runners are without peers - or have money on the scale mentioned. Which is why I am asking why the runners would be able to win against a corp too, in your campaign.
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Jan 30 2008, 01:32 PM
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#218
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I do not understand. The proportion of Art's total resources compared to a runner team is on the same magnitude as a yakuza gumi compared to a AAA's. But then I don't play a game that deviates (much) from canon. Which is why I am asking why the runners cannot gravely hurt a yakuza gumi, in your campaign. |
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Jan 30 2008, 01:42 PM
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#219
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
I am simply asking why runners cannot take down a corp in your world. What does the corp have that the yakuza (especially if backed by MCT) has not?
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Jan 30 2008, 01:44 PM
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#220
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
And I answered that already - in my campaign, the yakuza has more ressources than the runner team, more power, and more influence, since it can easily afford to hire 5 or more teams at the same power level of the runner team to go after the runner, and still has their own men, and their allies on gang and corp side, to help them. What I want to know is where in your campaign, the line is drawn between "runners can take this organisation down, but not this." Can the runner team take down an AA corp? Or a triple-A? If not, why not? |
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Jan 30 2008, 02:12 PM
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#221
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
In my campaign, the yakuza may be able to hire many teams to go after the runner team, but unless the teams are hired before the runners go for broke, they will not be able to be effective in hunting down the runners before they do their damage, whether the yakuza can survive this run of attacks is dependent on GM discretion, but I will base the yakuza on canon material. Unlike a yakuza gumi which has a localised power base (which could be at best the equivalent of a A corp), a AA has a decentralised power base. The logistics involved in taking down a AA or AAA is further compounded by the fact that there are canon NPC forces that were not relegated to Grunt status(unlike the Renraku Red Samurai and equivalent forces) and remain as Superior/Ultimate NPCs themselves. Furthermore, there is no canon AA/AAA corp leadership statted in the book(unlike the organised crime where there is the Mafia consiglieri), which would probably force me to invoke Prime Runner rules as much I do not want to. |
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Jan 30 2008, 02:19 PM
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#222
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
And the fact that according to the OP, MCT (an AAA corporation) is backing the Yakuza enters your calculations where exactly?
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Jan 30 2008, 02:32 PM
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#223
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Toturi and Fuchs, I think you are arguing different things.
Position one: The runners are in hiding, have information on their target, and can do serious damage. They have initiative, because the Yakuza can only defeat them if they come out into the open. Depending on the gear they have, destroying the oyabuns house is certainly within reach, and therefore the death of the oyabun, too. Position two: The yakuza will kill the runners dead in the long run. That depends on how deep the runners will be hiding, but if they don´t, it will come true. The Yakuza can only continue to exist if it eliminates the runners. I think the alignment between both positions is that the runners can continue to attack until they make their first mistake. OT: In my campaign, Art would be dead. In a world that has such preference for the attacker, you simply do not believably say "There can only be one of us!" to an organisation that has the ressources to have you killed. You do not make people take the conflict personal. Ever. There will only be one. |
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Jan 30 2008, 02:34 PM
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#224
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
(Who's Art, btw? And what exactly did he do?)
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Jan 30 2008, 02:41 PM
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#225
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Art Dankwalter. Beetlehead recipient of a sum of moneys from Dunk's will. Took down a AA corp as practice. Almost took down a AAA for real. Omega Order by way of Orbital Bovine Bombardment aka Thor Shot stopped him. |
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