 Arsenal Qs, and typos, if you find any |
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 Feb 1 2008, 11:50 PM
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#151
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
You do understand that I was just using 'boxing' as an example. I could have just as easily picked Jeet Kune Do. |
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Feb 1 2008, 11:57 PM
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#152
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
ah yes, jeet kune do . . the one superior fighting style . . ok, aside from jackie chans ^^
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Feb 1 2008, 11:59 PM
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#153
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
re fortune:
so? the point AH is trying to make is that as with more styles, one have more ways to hit someone, and therefor more ways to make use of openings in the opponents defenses. i have yet to hear about a marital art that can block any other martial art with equal ease. also, being damn good in a controlled setting like a boxing ring means little in a fight on the street. there nobody will play by the rules. only real problem with the abstract way SR deals with hand to hand combat is the supposed time a round should take, and that one can get multiple phases within said round... |
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Feb 2 2008, 12:03 AM
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#154
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
the wife telling the husband that he is to sleep on the couch for a week. yes, yes, i will shut up now <.< |
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Feb 2 2008, 12:12 AM
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#155
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, I got that, but thanks. I was merely making sure it was clear that the focus wasn't so much on 'boxing' as it was on any one particular style. |
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Feb 2 2008, 12:59 AM
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#156
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Having boxed, I disagree. Being a good boxer means being able to take a punch, having fast reflexes and the ability to strike very fast and very powerfully. All strong assets. True, no-one will try to gouge your eyes out in the ring (except maybe Tyson), but it's wrong to say that being very good in a controlled setting means little outside that setting. |
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Feb 2 2008, 01:12 AM
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#157
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Of course, all the things you describe are less a matter of style and more a matter of attributes and (in the case of SR) augmentations.
Here's something y'all might appreciate. Scan down to the dialog for p.18. |
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Feb 2 2008, 01:15 AM
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#158
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Holyfield might headbutt you in the ring though. Always gotta look out for that.
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Feb 2 2008, 01:26 AM
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#159
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Those are certainly a factor, but I did start this out with the qualification 'all other things being equal'. :) |
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Feb 2 2008, 01:28 AM
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#160
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Really? Then what does a rating 6 skill in a martial art represent if it's not an ingrained ability to perform these moves fast and effectively. Because having studied and actually fought, I can tell you that it doesn't take you that long to learn "the moves". What it takes is time and practice to do them right, and to do them right in all circumstances. You can be a strong person and still not throw a powerful punch. You can weigh 102lbs and put every bit of it into a perfect punch.
If the quote is this one: "YOU DON’T WIN FIGHTS BY BEING A STRONG MAN OR A CLEVER BOXER. YOU WIN FIGHTS BY BEING MORE PREPARED TO PERMANENTLY FUCK UP THE OTHER GUY." I'm afraid to say that personal experience disagrees. I've fought someone who seriously wanted to hurt me. Conversely, I actually wanted to avoid hurting him. Still, I turned out to be stronger than they expected and turned out to be a more "clever boxer," too. In contradiction to the faux-philosophy of Warren Ellis, I won the fight. At least as much as you can ever honestly say "win" about two people hitting each other. |
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Feb 2 2008, 01:40 AM
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#161
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
A fair point, but I like to differentiate from skill and attributes. You can be pretty weak but learn to throw a good punch by using your weight and knowing where to hit the other guy; that's skill. An octogenarian third dan black belt that gets felled by a lucky swing from a new kid that's seven feet tall and all muscle; the ability to take a hit is more attribute than skill. So consider this in Shadowrun terms: you can put all the Karma you want into Martial Arts, but you're still limited by your skills. You can put all the Karma you want into your skills, and you're still not going to be any faster or stronger or tougher. A good SR fighter has to have decent attributes (and augmentations), skills, and a bit of training (martial arts). Which is close enough to real life to make sense.
It's a clever quote more than anything to be taken seriously, but the principle is sound in many respects. If somebody tries to hit you and you pull a gun and shoot them, you win. Changing the perceived conditions of a fight can give you a very decisive edge, which goes back to our discussion on the "pure" boxer vs. the mixed-fighter earlier. In the perfect conditions of a boxing match, the "pure" boxer will almost assuredly have the edge; change the conditions (allow kicks, for example) and the fight is no longer one-sided. |
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Feb 2 2008, 03:13 AM
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#162
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
How about we get away from 'boxing' then, and choose Jeet Kune Do instead (you made me do it! :P :D). This 'style' is supposed to be, in a way, a blend of stuff from many 'styles', but be that as it may for the moment.
Now, all other factors being equal, ie. Attributes, Skill level, Augmentation, presence or absence of Magic, whatever else other than the Martial Arts Quality is equal. So, we have this dude. Let's call him Bruce, who trains and trains and dedicates himself to becoming the perfect fighting machine. He masters every single aspect of fighting, and is willing to spend as much time and energy (Karma) in doing so. Let's say Bruce masters (totally maxes out) his 'style' in an arbitrary ten years, but is perfectly willing to go on learning and training and adapting and learning and training and ... Now we've got Bob, who goes to Bruce's Jeet 'r' Neet academy for ten years of personal training, learning everything there is to know from the dude himself, and all the other peers there. Now, after those ten years, Bob goes across the street to David's Kung Fu Too school or Steven's Wing Nut Chung dojo, where in the space of a month he can become the better than Bruce. When it comes down to it, I think either Bruce should be able to keep training (paying Karma) to improve his art in the same way as Bob, without switching 'styles', or the various 'styles' should not stack at all, but merely be flavor (as it really should be in an abstract combat system like SR4). |
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Feb 2 2008, 04:14 AM
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#163
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Well, here's the thing and the whole of the thing...Bruce wasn't mastering one particular style, he was learning many styles and eventually created his own with features from the many styles he had learned (or hey, maybe some new ones). So even if Bob mastered Jeet Do What Bruce Do, he can still expect to get his ass handed to him by Bruce because Bruce invented the style and still knows a shit load more than Bob does. I'm always of the mind that you should adapt the rules to suit your needs and not the other way around. So if you want to be the best Jeet Kune Do artist ever, maybe you learn the styles it was based on, or different versions taught in different schools (one form of Jeet Kune Do might be mechanically identical to Wildcat, another might be identical to Aikido), or possibly invent a new and more advanced form. Just because the quality technically tops out at four bonuses means you have to stop there, as a GM I would definitely consider allowing a player to buy additional bonuses in a single martial art if they really work at it, receive special instruction (Astral quest to meet the ghost of Bruce Lee, here we come). The martial arts rules are not designed to limit your games, and they shouldn't. |
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Feb 2 2008, 04:41 AM
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#164
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Target Group: Members Posts: 93 Joined: 30-October 07 Member No.: 13,970 |
nanomaintenance system on pg 138 is listed twice in the table..
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Feb 2 2008, 04:43 AM
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#165
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Why would he become better "in the space of a month"? You're spending a quarter of the points for a quarter of the bonuses so I would think it'd take a quarter of the time of "mastering" a style. It's not just "dabbling"; were I to extrapolate from your completely arbitrary decade, I'd say it's spending two and a half years in an alternate style searching for complimentary techniques, which isn't something to sneeze at. Maybe you haven't expended the same amount of effort as a "master" has in another style, but you're certainly well on your way.
The whole JKD thing in this case is really funny, because Bruce used to happily tell big guys they might want to learn from someone who knows more wrestling and tall guys like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar that they may want to learn kick boxing because with his reach he could nail someone from across the room. His foundation was in wushu but he was a really big fan of cherry picking whatever suited you. Anyway, I'm not really sure where else we could go with this. The whole thing's a fluff concern that can be argued back and forth ad nauseum. |
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Feb 2 2008, 04:49 AM
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#166
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 11-September 05 Member No.: 7,729 |
On p. 105, under 'Vehicle Weapons and Recoil', the example that supposedly suggests the need for a house-rule (a Body 2 drone mounting an LMG) isn't possible, by RAW. A vehicle has to be at least Body 3 (roughly human-sized) to support a weapon mount (even for a hold-out pistol). And it seems that almost all the drones that can legitimately be armed are designed in such a way that they'd naturally counteract any excess recoil/climb by virtue of their configuration, mass, or greater strength.
I also want to extend kudos to whoever it was that came up with the idea of using the segway and drone wheelchair as a way to keep your ragdoll teammates mobile while they're working. It seems so obvious in retrospect that it's funny to think it hadn't come up over the first three editions (well, the scooter gets a pass, since it's a fairly recent invention). |
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Feb 2 2008, 05:01 AM
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#167
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It is really immaterial how long it actually takes in the context of this discussion. I tried to illustrate that point with the use of the word 'arbitrary' in relation to the time taken when I referenced 'ten years', and didn't feel the need to repeat myself on every single occasion that I mention a unit of time in a hypothetical situation. The point is that, one month or two-and-a-half-years, or even another 10 years, Bruce should be equally able to spend a similar amount of time, effort, and Karma in intensive training to improve, just as freely as Bob can, even though Bob switched 'styles' while Bruce stayed with the same style. |
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Feb 2 2008, 05:51 AM
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#168
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Ah, okay, nm then; I already agreed with that idea long ago, what with my whole "You can just bullshit your way to multiple bonuses regardless since this is all fluff anyway" speech and the agreement with the Martial arts: More Boxing quality.
It's the style switching in midfight crap that I took issue with. |
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Feb 2 2008, 06:06 AM
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#169
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
No, it can still very easily be one sided. The quote in question, I hope, refers to ferocity, not just desire to cause harm. A person can simply dominate a fight with ferocity alone. All you have to do is keep hitting your opponent over and over again, so fast and so often that he can't think straight and can't counter attack. It doesn't matter if kicks are allowed or not if the boxer pins the other guy in the corner and just keeps pounding his face.
I'd like to point you to the climatic fight between Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris in Way of the Dragon.
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Feb 2 2008, 06:23 AM
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#170
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I've already seen it, and it doesn't really change my opinion much on this one. It costs 5bp/10karma per benefit and potentially eats up your 35 bp cap on qualities so I simply don't think limiting the players is a good choice since the bonuses are limited by their unarmed skill anyway. Over the infinite karma horizon it could be an issue, but I'm not particularly worried about that.
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Feb 2 2008, 01:41 PM
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#171
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Some of the weapon mods should be revised, as restrictions imposed to them are undue compared to other equipment:
Camera Upgrade: Slotcost should be '-' instead of '1' Skinlink: Slotcost should be '-' instead of '1' Technically, those modifications don't concern the weapon, but the sub-components of the smartgun system. (And even every RFID or mirco sensor camera can be upgraded with skinlink and vision enhancements without limits) Camoflage Ghillie Shroud: Slotcost should be '-' instead of '1' Extended Clip: Slotcost should be '-' instead of '1' External stuff does not consume internal space of any kind - technically, this should be listed as accessory. Oh, and an internal Smartgun system is either an accessory or a modification. |
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Feb 2 2008, 09:38 PM
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#172
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935 |
I didn't see this brought up in skimming the thread, but is there any reason to buy a thunderstike guass cannon?
The Barret 121 is better than it in every concievable way (except maybe range, I didn't compare the ranges on sniper rifles v. assault cannons). |
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Feb 2 2008, 10:10 PM
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#173
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Feb 2 2008, 07:23 AM)  I've already seen it, and it doesn't really change my opinion much on this one. It costs 5bp/10karma per benefit and potentially eats up your 35 bp cap on qualities so I simply don't think limiting the players is a good choice since the bonuses are limited by their unarmed skill anyway. Over the infinite karma horizon it could be an issue, but I'm not particularly worried about that. Actually, it's limited by the relevant skill, which is not always Unarmed Combat. |
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Feb 2 2008, 10:10 PM
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#174
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Feb 2 2008, 04:38 PM) I didn't see this brought up in skimming the thread, but is there any reason to buy a thunderstike guass cannon? The Barret 121 is better than it in every concievable way (except maybe range, I didn't compare the ranges on sniper rifles v. assault cannons). coolness points. duh! |
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Feb 2 2008, 11:29 PM
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#175
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Feb 2 2008, 10:38 PM) I didn't see this brought up in skimming the thread, but is there any reason to buy a thunderstike guass cannon? The Barret 121 is better than it in every concievable way (except maybe range, I didn't compare the ranges on sniper rifles v. assault cannons). The missing sentence about it cutting any non-smart armor in half befor applying AP - like it's big brother? BTW: the Cyclops bike is a real mean machine if equipped with Smart Tires and Engine Customization to compensate for them - +5 Handling and climbing stairs. PS: ..now the forum's green, too... |
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