 Arsenal Cover, crappy or craptastic? |
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 Jan 28 2008, 09:14 PM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,811  |
I like Runner Havens the best of the 4e covers. I detest Augmentation and Arsenal.. both for different reasons that have already been discussed. My favorites prior to 4e were probably the SOTA covers and SoE.
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Jan 28 2008, 09:57 PM
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#27
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I've actually come round slightly to the cover of Augmentation. It looks like a video game, but it at least fits the tone of what I feel Shadowrun should be. What I see as cartoony art grates with me more than the brash ugliness of the Augmentation cover does. I guess for me, the distinguishing characteristic of the art that I like is that it looks more mature than that which I don't like. A more cartoon style looks more juvenile to me. Augmentation may be ugly, but it's not quite juvenile. But even less so would be something like the cover of Shadows of Europe which looks more sophisticated by virtue of the quality of the work alone, let alone before we start considering the subject matter. I don't want to be too hard on the artist of Arsenal though. The perspective (and magnetic bullets) shows a lack of thoroughness but my main objection is that it doesn't capture the feel of what Shadowrun should be. The technical aspects of the painting are part of that, but not all of it. |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:18 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 15-September 07 Member No.: 13,288 |
I like the cover, but then I like Zug's work generally anyway, though this isn't his best work certainly.
I love the fact that SR has always embraced a truly diverse array of artistic styles, including the cartoony stuff. Hell, Laubenstein pretty much defined the look of the game in the past, followed later by Prescott, not to mention the likes of Bonner and Nelson. It's one of SR's great strengths, in my opinion, reflecting the fact that it can be played in any way the GM wants from wahoo to serious, and the fact that the game has always had a very strong sense of humour. Part of SR's success probably owes to the fact that it caters to such a wide range of game styles and preferences, not pigeonholing itself as being solely "wacky and over-the-top", "serious and mature", or whatever other label folks care to apply. Have I liked all the artists? Heck no, but I wouldn't for a second want Catalyst to start doing artwork, covers, etc. only to fit one style or approach. Now, as for Zug's Arsenal cover, I think it succeeds. Why? a) It very clearly illustrates what the book is about. b) It ties in with SR's long history of diverse artwork, including much done in a cartoony style. c) It has a sense of humour with its obvious nod towards the kind of "Moe's Militia Store!" advertisement or catalogue you can easily envision. d) It's bold and eye-catching. e) It very clearly looks like a Shadowrun cover. cheers! Colin |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:28 PM
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#29
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
How can you write a diatribe on the history of art in Shadowrun and not mention Bradstreet even once? :eek: |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:32 PM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 15-September 07 Member No.: 13,288 |
Because it was a diatribe about the history of cartoony artists in SR, illustrating how the use of a cartoony style is a strong part of SR's history. cheers! Colin |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:33 PM
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#31
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
@Colin: I stand corrected - there's a lot there I agree with.
Perspective is still hideous however. |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:37 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 15-September 07 Member No.: 13,288 |
Thanks, mate. I do agree on the perspective aspect, btw; Zug is certainly capable of better. cheers! Colin |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:39 PM
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#33
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I don't like the Arsenal or Augmentation cover art pieces. I don't have a particular problem with the Arsenal cover other than it doesn't fit what I see as Shadowrun's style. Runner Havens and Street Magic both worked, but I agree that the last cover I felt really jazzed about was Shadows of Europe. That piece bled buckets of mood.
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Jan 28 2008, 10:41 PM
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#34
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't know if I personally would label all of those artists you listed as 'cartoony', but if that was your point then fair enough. I was just going to edit Elmore's name into my post of mock-outrage. :D |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:42 PM
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#35
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I hold pretty much the exact opposite opinion on every front. I think at least for the front covers that Shadowrun could use a more unified look. The circuit board motif goes a ways towards holding things together, but beyond that it falls apart for me. In all honesty I think what would make me happiest is if they just managed to lock up Klaus Scherwinski in a basement somewhere with a bunch of art supplies and put his ass to work. Also, I actually like Mark Zug, but honestly between the BBB and Arsenal I kinda want him to stay the hell away from Shadowrun.
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Jan 28 2008, 10:45 PM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 15-September 07 Member No.: 13,288 |
Going slightly Off-Topic for a moment, speaking of Zug does anyone know if there's a decent quality jpg of his 3e Adept archetype anywhere, as one of my players has created a character that the pic would fit to a tee and I'd like to print one out for him.
cheers! Colin |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:50 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 15-September 07 Member No.: 13,288 |
Heh. Maybe Elmore should do a new SR cover: semi-naked elf warrior chicks with perms. :eek: Then again... ;) |
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Jan 28 2008, 10:58 PM
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#38
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'd buy it! :D
And it would more than likely be much better than any of the cover art that Shadowrun has produced in the past decade. |
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Jan 28 2008, 11:02 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 194 Joined: 30-August 07 Member No.: 12,989 |
a) Really? I think it was not that necessary to spam the cover with so many guns and stuff from the book ... Best example how it also would have worked: Street Samurai Catalog. b) Sorry, no offense but could you please define this so called long history of diverse artwork, including much done in cartoony style? When i open the 1st edition corebook i cant see that much of this cartoony style, neither inside the 2nd edition. This crap, sorry pplz, starts with the 3rd edition, and looks to be regular artwork for the 4th editon. Sometimes i cant believe how much the game changed, and with this i dont mean the rules itself, glad that the 4th edition came out, its a good improvment. What i mean is the art itself, its the pictures that used to impress me in the old days. Check out 2nd edition, site. 77 (tim bradstreet) or the colourised pics on s. 128+ (favorite: janet aulisio) aso. I could continue this going thru a lot of "old" shadowrun sourcebooks where the pictures somehow catched a moment of shadowrun. If i see moste pics from the 4th edition and of course partly 3rd i ask myself where the hack has that cyberpunk flow gone? It is definitly missing, or at least badly representet by current artist. Is this only me, or are there also others that thinkg the same way. c) I doubt that ppl could mistake it for a D&D sourcebook if it wouldnt look that cartoonish. |
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Jan 28 2008, 11:29 PM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 15-September 07 Member No.: 13,288 |
Mate, I already defined it, but hey, different strokes/definitions and all that. To you, for instance, Laubenstein may not have been cartoony, but to other folks (including me) he was. Now, sit back, relax, and enjoy the new Elmore cover for Arsenal:
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8991/el...earsenalsx0.jpg :eek: :rotfl: |
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Jan 28 2008, 11:41 PM
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#41
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Elmore - has talent and a fixation on scanty-women with eighties hair and makeup. Please keep him away from Shadowrun or else sit him down with a fashion mag published in the last year. :) -K. |
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Jan 28 2008, 11:47 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 15-September 07 Member No.: 13,288 |
So, where do I sign up to become a cover designer? ;) BTW, nice to see a fellow Westcountryman hereabouts.
cheers! Colin |
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Jan 28 2008, 11:59 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
LOL!! Reminds me of a cartoon in Dragon magazine years ago showing a woman in one of those chainmail bikinis saying "Thank goodness I was wearing my chain mail!" and hundreds of arrows are stuck just in the tiny chainmail patches. Come to think of it, maybe that's the way it would work in the real world -- you hit what you're looking at... :D |
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Jan 29 2008, 03:46 AM
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#44
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Here's my deal-breaker.
The female ork, which is supposed to be the centerpiece, is drawn like a male. The body shape and lines are basically a male with breasts, instead of a muscular female. Now, this does happen a lot: fashion artists, for example, get so used to drawing females that they forget how to draw males. But it's still a basic, beginner mistake. Add to it the aforementioned perspective issues, and the fact that her arms are done completely wrong, the main focus of the picture completely fails, and takes the rest of the piece with it. These are all *beginner* mistakes, and definitely do not belong on a professional piece. Fuchs, in the troll thread, drew a much better female ork in action, that was muscular, but still noticeably female. I'd expect something much more like that. |
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Jan 29 2008, 04:41 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 8-November 07 Member No.: 14,097 |
The Arsenal cover actually reminds me of Car Wars and the art for the "Uncle Albert's Auto Stop and Gunnery Shop" catalogs ... ;)
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Jan 29 2008, 10:05 AM
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#46
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, they don't really look 'muskular'. And it's a common problem for females on steroids to start looking 'male'. |
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Jan 29 2008, 10:40 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
First, Cain: I have MET women who were built like that. Now, you go find one, and tell her "You are just a man with breasts" and see how far she throws you. I do not see where you think she looks like a man with breasts, either. The Yes, she has muscled arms, and since she is wearing long pants, we cannot see how obviously muscled her legs are, but it did look like he had the feminine build in that, to me, anyway, it looks like she has hips. And, pardon me, but..how do you know her arms are done "wrong"? Again, I have met and known women built like her. Heck, my first Shadowrun GM was built like her!(And was a sword and board fighter in the SCA, and wore plate, not the lighter lamellar armour that most people wore) Second: Fuchs did not draw anything. That picture you linked to was done in either Poser or DAZ Studio. It involved essentially taking a pre-done female model, and injecting pre-done settings to her musculature. I know because I ALSO work with DAZ Studio. |
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Jan 29 2008, 03:07 PM
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#48
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
:rotfl: Klaus is awesome... |
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Jan 29 2008, 03:18 PM
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#49
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Never claimed otherwise (it's DAZ). Although "injecting pre-done settings" is not entirely correct, those were built up by mixing a number of settings for body, bodyparts and face, and adding modified stuff (the tusks were horns to start with)until I had the look I wanted. It was not just "inject female ork morph, done". However, I expect much better from professional artists. I think Catalyst should check out what real artists can do with poser/daz before comissioning more artwork. Most of the stuff one can see in some galeries at Renderosity blows away all SR3/SR4 artwork. |
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Jan 29 2008, 04:22 PM
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#50
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Eh, "blows away" is entirely a matter of personal taste, though. Yours might be overly "realistic" 3d art, somebody else's is Luabenstein. That's why I like the mix of art in SR.
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