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> Talk to me about Augmented Reality
Maelwys
post Jan 28 2008, 02:25 AM
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So there have been a few things about SR4 that continue to elude me, and I figured I might as well ask here.

Augmented Reality. I get the concept, I get the idea. I'm just not sure how you're supposed to interact with it (atleast on various levels).

The lowest form of interaction seems to be using your commlink and a pair of glasses (or contacts, or goggles, or whatever) with an image link, and a pair of headphones. The data is sent from the commlink to the image link and the headphones, and any manipulation done is by typing on the commlink, or using its controls or touchscreen. This allows you to close any spam advertising popping up, allows you to select which window you're viewing, etc.

The next level of interaction is mostly cyberware. Instead of glasses and headphones, you're utilizing cybereyes and ears, and potentially things like the taste booster and the olfactory booster. Controlling the AR has changed slightly. Now you're using AR gloves to manipulate windows, icons etc.

Now starts the questions...what's the next level beyond AR gloves? It can't be that everyone is walking around town like a mime. There has to be someway to interact with the AR without using AR gloves, so what exactly is it? Does it require an implanted commlink, which is theoretically DNI? Or how about a datajack...though can you connect via wireless to the datajack (which seems like then you wouldn't need the external port for the datajack).

The next question is...can you skip all the cyberware and what not by using a simrig/sim module? Can the simrig/module project the AR enhancements into your mind/senses as a limited form of simsense, or is it always an overwhelming your normal senses?

This post has been edited by Redjack: Feb 9 2008, 01:54 PM
Reason for edit: Flagged as sr4
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Ancient History
post Jan 28 2008, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE
what's the next level beyond AR gloves?

Trodes and tags. Imagine shopping by walking into a store, picking up what you want, and walking out. The tags in the merchandise displays the price and tracks the item, and the store's computer talks with yours and deducts the cost from your cred account.

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Maelwys
post Jan 28 2008, 03:15 AM
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Trodes, from what I understand, allow you to experience simsense. Basically You download the simsense to your commlink, which filters it through the sim module, which sends it to the trode rig.

But that means that you're using simsense, in a simulated world, which means your body is slumped over somewhere. You aren't walking around with it going.

Tags I understand. Basically its like a long range barcode scanner and today's pulse cards that you just wave at the credit card machine. You pick up an item, the scanner reads the tag, deducts the amount from your credit limit, etc.

That doesn't help you if two calls pop up at the same time. How do you answer them, or choose which to answer if your hands are full, thus limiting the use of AR gloves and physically manipulating the touch screen/scrollbar/wheel on the commlink?
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kigmatzomat
post Jan 28 2008, 04:08 AM
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In AR you can use a neural interface (trodes/jacks) to provide the input, replacing the keyboard/mouse/AR gloves. Glasses/earbuds/cyber are the display media. This essentially lets you use the "mental command" ability to turn external devices on/off the way you can cyberware.

Switching to full VR bypasses the need for audio/video devices but also engages the RAS interrupts, turning you into a slumped over zombie.

Just as a reminder, AR gives a bonus to driving tests but VR reduces the threshold successes.
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Kenshi
post Jan 28 2008, 04:52 AM
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Augmented Reality as I understand it:

You can access AR with a commlink and either trodes or a datajack. If using trodes, you will need AR gloves for interface purposes. If using a datajack, this is a direct neural interface (no need for typing, no AR gloves). You will need AR glasses or cybereyes to visualize the AR landscape and headphones/earbuds/cyberears for any audio purposes.
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djinni
post Jan 28 2008, 04:55 AM
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QUOTE (Maelwys)
That doesn't help you if two calls pop up at the same time. How do you answer them, or choose which to answer if your hands are full, thus limiting the use of AR gloves and physically manipulating the touch screen/scrollbar/wheel on the commlink?

think of it like a computer screen.
if two calls come in at the same time its the same as if you get an IM on your computer.
a little flashing icon pops up in your peripheral and notes that your joygirl is calling to ask about your date tonight, and that your boss is calling to get you to work on saturday. you either answer or don't.
if your hands are full then you would have shut off the gloves for AR I/O and there's a non issue you can fall back to voice commands "Receive call: Joygirl"
there's tons of ways to do it that's why its not explained in the book.
look at teh interfaces of today and what is possible and you have the right Idea.
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Maelwys
post Jan 28 2008, 08:18 AM
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Well, one person says that Trodes can be used for input, another says that you can use trodes inplace of image links and sound links.

Glad I'm not the only one apparently confused.

Where does it say anything about trodes being able to be used for anything other than full simsense?

I mean, I would like it if you could throw on a trode rig and have the benefits of AR without having to bother with iimage links, or glasses that could be easily knocked askew, etc, but I'm just not seeing it in the rules.
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Crusher Bob
post Jan 28 2008, 09:01 AM
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Page 209
QUOTE

The easiest and most common way to get your AR fix, though, is through simsense. You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack.
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Eurotroll
post Jan 28 2008, 09:04 AM
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The way I rule in my group, trodes cover the "input vector" of AR without going full VR. (What would be the point in going full sensory experience for a tag, anyway?) You still need an image link of some variety.
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Nostalgic Jester
post Jan 28 2008, 09:14 AM
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This subject has already been discussed thoroughly and extensively... So if you run a search you should get some useful information about it.

As a "preview", I can tell you that even when the rules on this topic are sometimes obscure (or contradictory) some sort of general consensus of how it all works does exist.
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Maelwys
post Jan 28 2008, 09:18 AM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
Page 209
QUOTE

The easiest and most common way to get your AR fix, though, is through simsense. You need a sim module for your commlink to interpret the signals and feed you the data via a cyberware simrig, worn simrig, trode net, or datajack.

Ah hah. I think I originally read that, then got confused later and forgot about it.

So it looks like its possible to have a limited simsense feed, which is just AR instead full VR.

That takes care of the input, but if you utilize trodes, is the communication one way? Can you manipulate AR with a thought, or does that require either a simrig, datajack or implanted commlink?
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Crusher Bob
post Jan 28 2008, 09:30 AM
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Sigh, you made me fire up acrobat reader again:

Also on page 209
QUOTE

AR can also be experienced through audible cues,  [...] You can control the volume via mental command or physical interface, and you don’t have to worry about snoopers overhearing since it’s all in your head.
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Caine Hazen
post Jan 28 2008, 01:42 PM
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See what happens when you stay out of the loop for a bit Mael... the kids and their damn technology get way ahead of you.

Yeah, the easiest way to do things in a secure method is via trode or datajack (since they're not wireless in most cases). AR acts as a sensory overlay at that level, where as VR becomes a replacement to your senses. If you want to see some real world versions of how this might work, look up the Furture Warrior (or Future Force Warrior), a good look at how the military is trying to use these technologies at the fundamental level.
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Maelwys
post Jan 28 2008, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Jan 28 2008, 09:30 AM)
Sigh, you made me fire up acrobat reader again:

Also on page 209
QUOTE

AR can also be experienced through audible cues,  [...] You can control the volume via mental command or physical interface, and you don’t have to worry about snoopers overhearing since it’s all in your head.

Yeah, but that passage is somewhat misleading, since it talks about mental command in the same passage that it talks about using cyberglasses to tightbeam the sound into your ear. Obviously you can't control something mentally unless you have a two way DNI link, which I have no idea if trode rigs count as (though I'm beginning to figure so, if just for a simply answer).

Caine: hey, not my fault you people broke the server :) Besides, Battletech has been more interesting until recently :)

I get the interface (now that i've read around..it would be helpful if the passage for trode rigs mentioned it could be used to send non-debilitating simsense signals for AR), its mostly been the input from your end that I've been confused about, though if trode rigs do provide two way communication (which I'm guessing they do at this point), that clears up alot.
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djinni
post Jan 28 2008, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (Maelwys)
its mostly been the input from your end that I've been confused about, though if trode rigs do provide two way communication (which I'm guessing they do at this point), that clears up alot.

remember the BBB is vague on purpose so if "in your game" its easier to just say it doens't do something then that's the way it works.
our game has all but one Technology prodigy so things are a bit on the heavy tech discussions out of game.
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Exodus
post Jan 28 2008, 09:22 PM
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In my game a Trode Net has the same exact function as a Datajack, except the Datajack can store information in it.
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cx2
post Jan 28 2008, 10:18 PM
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Since trodes let you use VR with the right equipment it would be logical to think they must have some form of output. Then again logic is a slippery slope around here, still it makes sort of sense.

Got to admit I really like the way AR is being treated, especially in Arsenal. Having AR info provided on a chip is a really interesting twist I hadn't considered, especially when it provides route information and later an entire virtual weapons display.
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crash2029
post Jan 28 2008, 11:40 PM
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AR in a chip. Hmm...Deus Ex or Deus Ex: Invisible War. Internal commlink w/sim module, various augmentations. AR-datacubes, books, security terminals. RFId tagged items that display in your HUD when you focus on them from a short distance. Smartlink displays ammo count in corner of vision, crosshair where gun is aimed, friend or foe when centered on target [teammates recognized by battletac]. Just an idea.
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hobgoblin
post Jan 29 2008, 12:03 AM
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many a FPS can be used as an example for AR, but the deus ex series is indeed the most fitting example.
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Maelwys
post Feb 5 2008, 01:14 PM
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Right, the merging of the forums got this kicked back to the 4th page, far enough back that I almost forgot about it.

I did notice something interesting. Even the premade characters in SR4 seem to rely heavily upon the AR gloves. Almost all the characters have them, even the Hacker and the Smuggler that have implanted commlinks and datajacks. Only one or two don't have AR gloves, and one is the Combat Mage with a trode rig, so that perhaps is an answer on if you can use trode rigs as output.

A somewhat related question...datajacks in the 6th world seem to be completely obsolete. Just about anything you can do with them you can do with a commlink, sim module and trode rig, for about 350 nuyen cheaper, and no essence. The only thing I can see that you can do with a datajack is connect two people together via a fiber optic cable, or to use a cable to physically jack into a location where there's no wireless, or heavy jamming, something a typical wageslave wouldn't care about. Is it possible that the Datajack is slowly going the way of the Dodo?
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Ryu
post Feb 5 2008, 01:36 PM
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Compared to what it did back in SR2.... Yes, definitly.

So far it is pretty useful - access to knowsofts, removing the need for a trode net, option of wired connections... pretty cheap for that.
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Blade
post Feb 5 2008, 01:45 PM
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And it can have wireless connection too.

As for the archetypes, they do have AR gloves... they also have a lot of problems and bad choices (the weapon specialist being the worst: a totally useless walking armory) so I don't consider them as reliable.
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DocTaotsu
post Feb 5 2008, 01:51 PM
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I'm pretty sure AR gloves, commlink, etc are probably what a large percentage of the population are using, especially the younger crowd.

Datajacks have a couple of things going for it though:

-They've been around forever so all kinds of things are designed to connect directly to them.
-They're secure. Nobody is going to hack or jam your smartlink if it's connected directly to your brain.
-They don't fall off, you can't leave them behind. This is more of an RP thing but I think it'd be annoying to tug on a pair of gloves or slip on a trode net everytime i want to go out. I get pissed off enough trying to keep track of my cellphone.
-This is just me and non cannon but... I think the datajack is probably still the best way to get DNI input/output. This is again an RP guideline rather than something from the rules.
-AR gloves probably get annoying to use for an extend period of time. Waving your arms around in the air to input direction is a really crappy way to do work. I've used touch screen computers before and leaves me begging for a mouse after awhile. Your average person probably still thinks it's easier to sit at a table and jack directly to their computer (with some sort of blue tooth wi-fi thing)


I think overall the only reason people would continue to get datajacks is because it's cheap, convenient, and there is a lot of support out there for it. In general though, I'd suspect datajacks are well on their way to being a bit of a relic. It probably takes a particular kind of person to want to have a chunk of metal in their head, but that kind of person probably still jumps for the chance to score a 500 nuyen datajack (and probably whines about how much it used to cost back in the day).
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Prime Mover
post Feb 5 2008, 02:08 PM
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Easy to get confused with so many references directing you at glasses,earbuds and ar gloves/touchlink way of using AR. But with the "new and improved" connectivity of trodes they seem obsolete. Around our table we've allowed trodes to be used as control device. Our real problems come when someone wants to Hack from AR

Edit: One thing I did notice when looked back over archtypes is that trodes,datajack etc require sim module modified commlink. Without one the eye,ear, and touch AR gear would be needed. Thats making more sense to me now.
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Kanada Ten
post Feb 5 2008, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Feb 5 2008, 08:08 AM) *
Easy to get confused with so many references directing you at glasses, earbuds and ar gloves/touchlink way of using AR. But with the "new and improved" connectivity of trodes they seem obsolete. Around our table we've allowed trodes to be used as control device. Our real problems come when someone wants to Hack from AR

Edit: One thing I did notice when looked back over archtypes is that trodes, datajack etc require sim module modified commlink. Without one the eye, ear, and touch AR gear would be needed. Thats making more sense to me now.

The question is: who wouldn't have a sim module? The cyberware version is identicle stat and costwise to the old datajacks - which half the population was supposed to have installed back in 2050...
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