 Awakened Jarheads?, Possible? |
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 Jan 31 2008, 10:07 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006  |
Ok, in another Thread, they mentioned the possibility of Awakened Cyborgs, and at first, it went against everything that I would think is right..but..
Maximum Magic Attribute=Essence(round down)+Initiation Grade Cyborg creation options do include taking someone who is already experienced, but there are some limits to what they can do(but things they can do that baby and cloned brains can't). So, if you have a mage who has several grades of Initiatin and maxed magic(lets say, a magic of 8), when his essence is reduced to 0.1, his maximum magic becomes 2. Now, the question is, though, can such a Magician still cast spells, counter-spell, or, well, do anything magically related?(I assume he keeps all his skills and spells, but..can he use them?) |
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Jan 31 2008, 10:13 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Note that mages in a jar are limited to sensory gear that they paid essence for. So, for example, for the mage in a jar to blast you in the normal way, the jar is going to need some cyber-eyes that the mage paid essence for attached (or just a little view-port that your original meaty eyes can look out from). Also note that a jar driving something around is probably not going to be exposed (inside an armored box instead) so astral perception out of your jar is not going to get very far. Note, as you paid essence for your jar, I'd assume you don't have any trouble seeing through/out of it with astral perception is no problem.
So the mage/jar/tank setup has a jar in an armored box, in a tank. The jar has some cyber eyes. The armored box has some fiber optic cables (i.e. mage sight goggles), and these go out to the surface of the tank, where it can cast spells on you. |
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Jan 31 2008, 11:51 AM
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#3
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
As far as I know, in every edition of Shadowrun, when a character's Essence is dropped below 1 full point, (ie. 0.99 and below) they lose all Magical ability (unless somehow sustained by utilizing Cybemancy). It is immaterial how many Grades of Initiation the mage has, or how high his Magic rating is at the time. It is only the Essence that is important, and since Essence is rounded down when dealing with the awakened, the character would need one full point of Essence in order to retain his Magical abilities. |
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Jan 31 2008, 12:20 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
It's pretty cut and dried. Per the rules, a Jarhead cannot be a Magician or a Technomancer. The attribute drop doesn't just happen from essence loss to 0.1 The attribute is actually reduced to zero. |
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Jan 31 2008, 12:34 PM
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#5
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Actually that quote just means that a jarhead cannot continue being a Magician or Technomancer.
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Jan 31 2008, 12:59 PM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
Huh? That's the same thing.
The CCU procedure reduces the attribute to zero. Per the core rules if it's reduced to zero, the character cannot do magic. For a technomancer, the text on p.232 for Resonance reduction describes it "as with Magic." This is admittedly less explicit than the above quote, but the intent is to be the same. |
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Jan 31 2008, 01:00 PM
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#7
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No. There's still Latent Awakening and perhaps Latent Resonance. |
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Jan 31 2008, 01:07 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 13-April 07 From: Houston, Texas Member No.: 11,448 |
If the jarheads were to actually become cyberzombies wouldnt they be able to do the things that the OP was attempting to do with a positive essence? They'd have a Magic of 1 + Initiation of 1, and be able to cast up to force 4 spells?
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Jan 31 2008, 01:07 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
No, actually there isn't.
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Jan 31 2008, 01:35 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Actually in one of the rules examples from SR3 (MitS I believe), it was talking about Astral Projection being done by a Cybermage who only had 0.17 Essence. It talked to the fact that his time in Astral Space was limited by his essence. In his case, he had 1 hour x 0.17 (since it used to be 1 hour per full point of Essence). The example specifically said that he had mere minutes of Projection time. All the rules have ever explicitly said was that a -1 Essence = a -1 Magic. So if you Initiated twice and got your Magic +2, then at 1 Essence you'd have 3 Magic. Now there is a practical lower limit due to Initiation Grade cannot exceed Magic Attribute. |
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Jan 31 2008, 01:41 PM
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#11
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
True. I forgot cyborgs were 0.1 Essense. |
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Jan 31 2008, 01:44 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 276 Joined: 6-August 02 From: Kiel, Germany Member No.: 3,071 |
I always mastered using that rule, but the last time it was explicitly written was SR2 (if at all) I think... |
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Jan 31 2008, 01:51 PM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, that's right, but as the_dunner noted, Street Magic explicitly states that a character who's Essence drops below 1 (which is specifically what we are talking about here) loses all Magical abilities. |
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Jan 31 2008, 02:14 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Fortune, doesn't that quoted section by dunner also refer specifically to Latent Awakening rather than Awakening in general?
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Jan 31 2008, 02:27 PM
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#15
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Shrug. Possibly, but as far as I am concerned, it refers to Awakening in general. Anyone who has less than 0.99999999 or less in Essence cannot be Awakened.
As further evidence, I put to you that a character can only ever Initiate to a maximum of 2x his Magic rating. If a character has less than 1 Essence (and hence a natural Magic of 0), he cannot Initiate, as 2 x 0 is still 0. |
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Jan 31 2008, 02:37 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
darthmord is correct, that refers specifically to Latent Awakening.
I think you're kind of missing the point at how this works. It's the character's *current* magic rating, not his/her magic cap or their "natural rating" (whatever that means) when considering the number of times a character can initiate. So, say your character has a 6 magic and decides to initiate 5 times. The PC then raises his magic each time and has a new magic rating of 11. At that time, his initiation limit would become 22. Our Magic 11 character gets kidnapped by Aztech, who forcibly install 5.5 points of Essence worth of Cyber and bio into his body. His new Essence is 0.5. His new Magic rating is 5. His Initiation grade remains 5. His Initiation maximum is now reduced to 10. EDIT to add/stay on thread: The CCU procedure that creates a jarhead is a special edge case that *explicitly* reduces Magic/Resonance to zero. |
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Jan 31 2008, 03:01 PM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I get how it works, but thanks. In cases like you describe (which I knew someone would post about as soon as I hit enter), I admit that's probably canon in SR4, but it doesn't work that way in my game (and it never has been). As an aside, I was incorrect about the interaction of Magic and Initiate Grades ...
That means your character with 11 (5) Magic and Grade 5 Initiation cannot increase his Magic at all (natural maximum of 6 + Initiate grade), and cannot Initiate (maximum initation = Magic). The same would be true for a Grade 2 Initiate with Magic 8 (2). There would be no way to progress. |
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Jan 31 2008, 03:15 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
Clearly not, because if the character were at Grade 6, with a Magic of 12, then their Initiation cap would be 12. |
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Jan 31 2008, 03:18 PM
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#19
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah I know. As I said, I am very tired. I tried to edit before anyone answered, but my damn connection sucks shit tonight.
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Jan 31 2008, 03:38 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 21-May 06 Member No.: 8,583 |
And what keeps Marines from becoming magically active anyway? :-D
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Jan 31 2008, 04:36 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
Kalvan, that is because it would be haxxoring the rules. :P
But yeah, I can see how a jarhead would have issues being magically active as many characters that have less than 1 Essence tend to be so from creation and it's hard to initiate PRIOR to character creation. Makes sense that they can't be magically active. This is one of those things I like about supplements... additional dimensions to express power but not necessarily to increase power. |
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Feb 1 2008, 09:18 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 992 Joined: 2-August 06 Member No.: 9,006 |
Ah, OK...I see it now, page 163, last sentence of the third Paragraph..OK..so they did think of things like that. |
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Feb 1 2008, 10:31 AM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
That's why smart mages just get thier limbs lopped off, and stick themselves into an armored suitcase with a life support system.
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Feb 1 2008, 10:36 AM
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#24
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Well, smart isn't exactly the first word I would use to describe that. :D
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Feb 2 2008, 11:46 PM
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#25
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
QUOTE (Grinder @ Feb 1 2008, 11:36 AM)  Well, smart isn't exactly the first word I would use to describe that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Marines are not known for being smart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) -Siege Edit: Sorry, my first thought was "have you ever tried to wake a Marine up?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) |
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