My Thoughts On Sr4, Great new rules but the sourcebooks..... Options

[It trolls!]

I think if PDFs make your system unstable the problem is mostly with your system...like there's probably spyware or something eating all your system resources.

It's been a while since I've used it but isn't Adobe Reader usually doing exactly that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) IIRC it's installing all sorts of permanent services and loves to call home. If PDFs appear to render sluggish, you might want to try an alternate viewer like Ghostview or Sumatra PDF

[Mattily]

I changed from Adobe Reader to PDF-Xchange viewer and all my pdf problems went away...just like that...so I'm fairly convinced the problem was adobe

I'll look at the other suggestions though...thanks

[hobgoblin]

adobe reader is just a mess, its so bloated that its not even funny...

sumatra looks interesting, but on windows i use foxit reader (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

but when it comes to reading pdfs i would really want a A4/usb letter sized eink screen.

if one have to scroll the pdf at all, it fails for use in game sessions imo.

and printing isnt a option imo, for going pdf would be to save on the mass of dead trees i have to carry around.

[MYST1C]

Actually, Adobe Reader can be necessary for some protected PDFs using Adobe-specific encryptions but for just anything else alternative PDF readers should work and are in generel much more resources-friendly.
My personal favorites:

• Foxit Reader (Windows)
• Evince (Linux, comes with GNOME desktop)
• KPDF (Linux, more functions than Evince)

[MYST1C]

but when it comes to reading pdfs i would really want a A4/usb letter sized eink screen.

1280x1024 (or larger), PDF reader in full-screen mode, set to "fit page" should result in pretty much A4 size vertically.

[hobgoblin]

1280x1024 (or larger), PDF reader in full-screen mode, set to "fit page" should result in pretty much A4 size vertically.

maybe so, but then i have lately found myself arguing that display makers should have used the Ax standard when sizing screens rather then the silly x" silliness that they use these days.

yep, i know im nuts...

[Daier Mune]

1. Combat is still slow. I tried getting rid of resisting damage, but it was unfair to heavy body types. Now I just rule of 4 all of that unless the players want to try to save their hides. The book has some good suggestions, anyone found anything that works well?

3. Is it just me or is the setting kind of lacking now? It seems that the SR setting is branching beyond Seattle, but at the expense of any real depth for all these new settings. Oh, and the history in the beginning of the book isn't as good any more. It has to skim over too much. I just bought Corporate Enclaves..... Nothing about Seattle. Nothing about the day to day life of Joe Average in 2070. I was hoping for something like the Sprawl Survival Guide. I'm not too impressed with Augmentation either. They were both expensive and not that interesting.

1. I think slow combat is just apart of the game. i really don't know of any tabletop or pen and ink RPGs that have "quick" battles. having people on the same page and who are really aware of what thier characters can do, and at least a basic understanding of what the rules are like helps. also, in our group we usualy have two "GM-class" people involved (myself and my friend Limited Infinity), so other players can ask questions and get official answers. two laptops with the PDFs, a hardcopy of the corebook, and a 3-ring binder of selected rule pages help cut down time needed to look up obscure rules, too.

3. heh, we've been running in Chicago, actualy. a small oversight in the timeline, sure, but its fun.

[hobgoblin]

most "quick" battle systems seems to do something like roll or die/out of battle, with the player characters having some limited way of avoiding those (point pool or similar).

beyond that the only way i can think of speeding up combat is by removing detail and player options.

movement? dont bother
cover? dont bother
attack options like different fire rates on guns? dont bother

and the list continues...

thing is, isnt these kinds of options the exact reason why we play SR rather then snakes and ladders?

[Cain]

1. I think slow combat is just apart of the game. i really don't know of any tabletop or pen and ink RPGs that have "quick" battles.

Savage Worlds. Wushu. And, by reputation, ORE and Risus. All four have reputations for blazingly fast combat resolution. I've only played Savage Worlds and Wushu, so I can say that those two make SR4 combat look like a slug with arthritis.

Does anyone know how SR4 combat stacks up against nWoD or Exalted? I'd say that it's about the same as D&D 3.x, although YMMV.

[knasser]

Does anyone know how SR4 combat stacks up against nWoD or Exalted? I'd say that it's about the same as D&D 3.x, although YMMV.

Only familiar with nWoD from your list, in comparison to which Shadowrun does run more slowly I'll admit, but in return it actually works as a combat system. nWoD - I despise it for bringing in new stuff that I want whilst simultaneously throwing out old stuff that I'd like to keep. The combat system is awful. Imo.

D&D 3.5 plays faster than Shadowrun in my experience though perhaps down to the fact that I had the entire system memorised and had a fat stack of prepared monster statistics with calculated attack bonuses. However, it takes longer as well because it can take so long to grind a beholder down to 0 hit points. The now you're fine, now you're dead health system is part of that as once things start to go bad in Shadowrun, they can go bad very fast in deed.

[the_dunner]

Exalted is different from SR. It *can* go a little faster, but the fact that you're rolling again to see how much damage you actually do after you hit somebody, but before they resist it tends to slow things down. Then, you've got the fairly obscene numbers of charms (comparable to feats in D20) in the game to keep track of. Exalted also rewards players for giving flowery descriptions of their actions (stunting), which adds to the RP element, but substantially slows down the part where you declare your action.

If you've got a group that gets into Stunting and accumulates (or creates) a lot of charms, then the game can really bog down. If you've got a group that's just playing with things out of the box and focuses on more passive charms, then it's fairly comparable in speed.

[BishopMcQ]

All in all, it comes down to personal preference. Cain's and others views on SR4 have become obvious, they enjoy naysaying the game and products. I play D&D 3.5, Palladium, oWoD, and SR4 regularly enough to say that I am equally conversant in all of the systems. All of the systems have the possibility for combat to be wrapped up in a single round of actions (less than 5 minutes) or to take minutes of in-game time (an entire 4 hour session). The two primary factors in SR come down to the readiness of players when their turn comes up and the number of combatants on the board. Obviously, the threat that the combatants offer can change a lot of the details but a skilled GM can keep the flow and pace of the game from bogging down.

Knasser mentioned beating down a beholder to 0 hit points can take a long time, but I am fairly sure that his players aren't dragging their feet in the third round and begging for it to just be over already. Some fights take longer, but the time balances against the rhythm to keep players interested. In one of Fenris' D&D games, he gives out action points for interesting descriptions of a character's actions--this keeps the involvement of the players in their characters in a longer fight so that it isn't just "I roll to hit, I do 12 points of damage." Likewise, when I am playing more cinematic Shadowrun, I use the 4+ optional rule, but have 4s only count for Critical Successes. This means that the cinematic flare happens more often in those games and I can have adepts running along walls shooting people and hackers displaying little birds around their enemies heads after hitting them like a mack truck with an attack program.

Long story short, for me the combat system isn't slow and tedious unless the players and GM let it be. If everyone wants to be involved and focussed on what is happening, the time passes and no one knows whether it took 5 minutes or an hour and no one really cares.

[Cain]

Only familiar with nWoD from your list, in comparison to which Shadowrun does run more slowly I'll admit, but in return it actually works as a combat system. nWoD - I despise it for bringing in new stuff that I want whilst simultaneously throwing out old stuff that I'd like to keep. The combat system is awful. Imo.

D&D 3.5 plays faster than Shadowrun in my experience though perhaps down to the fact that I had the entire system memorised and had a fat stack of prepared monster statistics with calculated attack bonuses. However, it takes longer as well because it can take so long to grind a beholder down to 0 hit points. The now you're fine, now you're dead health system is part of that as once things start to go bad in Shadowrun, they can go bad very fast in deed.

Like I said, I've personally found it to be about the same, but YMMV of course.

Exalted is different from SR. It *can* go a little faster, but the fact that you're rolling again to see how much damage you actually do after you hit somebody, but before they resist it tends to slow things down. Then, you've got the fairly obscene numbers of charms (comparable to feats in D20) in the game to keep track of. Exalted also rewards players for giving flowery descriptions of their actions (stunting), which adds to the RP element, but substantially slows down the part where you declare your action.

If you've got a group that gets into Stunting and accumulates (or creates) a lot of charms, then the game can really bog down. If you've got a group that's just playing with things out of the box and focuses on more passive charms, then it's fairly comparable in speed.

Now here's where I'm confused. I'm familiar with Wushu, which is basically just a stunting system. And it runs *fast*. Granted, it doesn't even try to be as tactical as Shadowrun, but it does run fast and smooth. Is there no "scene cap" in Exalted? No limit to the number of details you can add, which encourages players to make extended speeches?

The two primary factors in SR come down to the readiness of players when their turn comes up and the number of combatants on the board. Obviously, the threat that the combatants offer can change a lot of the details but a skilled GM can keep the flow and pace of the game from bogging down.

People throw a fit when I bring up this comparison, but Savage Worlds, with or without minis, handles large numbers of combatants quite easily. I threw 50+ natives at a party in a Pirates of the Caribbean game last week, and it took less than 25 minutes.

Long story short, for me the combat system isn't slow and tedious unless the players and GM let it be. If everyone wants to be involved and focussed on what is happening, the time passes and no one knows whether it took 5 minutes or an hour and no one really cares.

The slow and tedious part for me is waiting around. If you've got only 1 IP, you'll be sitting around on your thumb for a good part of the battle. In that respect, I prefer the other systems, which allows even slow characters to act every round.

[hobgoblin]

http://www.megatokyo.com/strip/750

[Casper]

People are always gonna hate Runner Havens 'cause it wasn't a Seattle book.

To all the people who disliked Runner Haven for not including more info on Seattle I would have to say I would be more angry if I had to pay more money for another book that just rehashed what was previously writen. Seriously you get to the point of how the hell are you to reinvent the wheel with that city. You already have your locations and 'hoods mapped out. I do wish that they could have done more with the individual nieghborhoods and there ratings listed in new seattle. I think the only thing that can be done is treatments for who the players are what care the current trends. A more who is vying for what and whom. Which we got in Runners Havens.

[Blade]

You can't have a system that's both fast and detailed. You can "optimize" a system so that you need less dicerolls, so that you don't need to remember one different ruleset for each action, but you can't have a system that will allow you to resolve a whole combat scene with one easy dice roll while taking into account everything and adding some flavor to the game.

If there was, all games would use the same perfect system. But as there isn't, each game will choose a system that fits best the way it's meant to be played.
Wushu will have very simple and fast rules so that you can have a lot of battle scene and a lot of fun without thinking too much. The drawback is that it won't be as tactical or realistic as what you'd get with complex rules, but that's not what the game aims for, so that's ok.
Shadowrun's combat is made to be tactical, simulationist and somehow realistic. You need to be able to describe your actions in detail (not just "I shoot" but "I get up, shoot that guy once in the head then roll toward that crate for cover and duck behind it") and each and every part of this description should have a determined impact on the game system (to be realistic and fair). That's why you end up with a system that's quite complex.
But if you want Shadowrun's combat scene to be like Wushu's, then maybe it'd be better for you to play with Wushu's rules.

[Cain]

I don;t think there's much of anyone who dislikes RH for not including more on Seattle. Some of us might say that we wish they'd included anything on Seattle at all, since most of the Seattle section can be cut-and-pasted into just about every other sprawl out there. A less extreme statement would be that, in comparison to the very well-done Hong Kong chapter, the Seattle section is bland, generic, insipid, and (deliberately?) designed to represent nowhere in particular.

Now, I'm not simply naysaying the entire book, since there are sections in there I really admire. Seattle simply isn't one of them. In fact, Seattle on the whole is poorly done. There's a few bright flashes-- like the ACHE-- but on the whole, the entire section is just boilerplate.
Edit:

You can't have a system that's both fast and detailed. You can "optimize" a system so that you need less dicerolls, so that you don't need to remember one different ruleset for each action, but you can't have a system that will allow you to resolve a whole combat scene with one easy dice roll while taking into account everything and adding some flavor to the game.

Once again, Savage Worlds. It's at least as detailed as SR4 is, with about as many combat options available, plus a lot of flexibility in the Test of Will and Trick maneuvers. And it runs many times faster. You *can* have fast and detailed, there are several systems out there that advertise just such a thing; and many systems that promise it but don't deliver. Savage Worlds is just one example of a system that delivers. Just because SR4 fails to deliver doesn't mean it's impossible, or that SR4 is a bad system.

[Blade]

I played some games with Savage Worlds and - even if I liked them and understand that some people can prefer using them to play Shadowrun - I don't share your opinion about the level of detail.

[dog_xinu]

1. Combat is still slow. I tried getting rid of resisting damage, but it was unfair to heavy body types. Now I just rule of 4 all of that unless the players want to try to save their hides. The book has some good suggestions, anyone found anything that works well?

combat is not that slow. And it is faster than 2nd/3rd.

2. Why are the PDF files so expensive? Hey, Catalyst! Make Them Cheaper. Way cheaper... If you make them $5, everyone I know would buy them. PDF files aren't as handy as a book. They get lost. You can't read them without a computer. They're cumbersome to use in play... Their perceived value is far less than that of a book. Besides, it's not like you have to pay to have them made. Sheesh.

as others have said, you have to pay the writers, authors, editors, etc plus pay for the website, the lights, payroll, the cons, etc.

3. Is it just me or is the setting kind of lacking now? It seems that the SR setting is branching beyond Seattle, but at the expense of any real depth for all these new settings. Oh, and the history in the beginning of the book isn't as good any more. It has to skim over too much. I just bought Corporate Enclaves..... Nothing about Seattle. Nothing about the day to day life of Joe Average in 2070. I was hoping for something like the Sprawl Survival Guide. I'm not too impressed with Augmentation either. They were both expensive and not that interesting.

the sourcebooks other than basic books have good information about various places around the globe.

4. Rigging and Decking rock now. It's amazing and wonderful. Job Well Done.

I agree. I just cant wait for "unwired" (or whatever they call the book), for the more advanced rules.

dog

[Connor]

Actually, Adobe Reader can be necessary for some protected PDFs using Adobe-specific encryptions but for just anything else alternative PDF readers should work and are in generel much more resources-friendly.
My personal favorites:

• Foxit Reader (Windows)
• Evince (Linux, comes with GNOME desktop)
• KPDF (Linux, more functions than Evince)

Skim (Mac OS X)

Excellent for adding additional notations, highlighting, and tons of other useful features.

[krakjen]

PDF-Xchange Viewer is good too.

[Cain]

I played some games with Savage Worlds and - ... - I don't share your opinion about the level of detail.

Part of that comes out in the Test of Wills and Trick systems. A Trick, especially, can represent a number of things, which you can detail however you like. For one, a Trick can represent a feint, which the SR4 rules doesn't have. Or, it can represent the old: "What in the world is that behind you?!" stunt, which still works; you also can't represent that under the SR4 rules. I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

combat is not that slow.

That's not much of a counterargument. "Sure, it stinks; but it doesn't stink that bad."

[Mattily]

I miss pools.

[arathian]

I think if PDFs make your system unstable the problem is mostly with your system...like there's probably spyware or something eating all your system resources.

The "something" could be Vista.

BTW, I think the PDFs are great. You can search, use bookmarks, copy and paste for personal use (huge if you are a GM), and we got the full text of Arsenal about 2 months before the street date.

[Kagetenshi]

I think if PDFs make your system unstable the problem is mostly with your system...like there's probably spyware or something eating all your system resources.

The first version (or three, it's been a while) of the SR4 PDF was an abomination. I don't know about system instability, but pages could take up to ten seconds to load on a reasonably fast machine (I was using Preview.app at the time, as I still am). A new version was released within a few weeks that fixed the issue.

Can't speak for any of the other SR4 PDFs. The other PDFs have been fine in my experience.

and when FanPro was selling them on other sites [like DriveThruRPG], they also got a cut of the sales.

Do I take this to mean that Catalyst has not chosen to pursue DTRPG et al. as resellers?

~J