Technomancers, Can it be done? Options

[Brol_The_Mighty]

Alright, so after being gone from gamine for 4 months (was on a work related trip) my gaming group is looking at going to 4e for SR. As I was reading the book, I found the Technomancer, and fell in love with the concept. A decker without a deck? A rigger with no VCR? That's freakin awesome! But then reading it, it started to sound a little too good to be true.

Can a REAL technomancer be done? I've read a couple threads on the forums about them, all pretty much stating they're gimped. This is what I wanna do essentially.

Be a GOOD hacker.
Be at least a FAIR rigger.

I'm looking to put the majority of my stat points into Logic, Intuition, Charisma, and Body. Putting into body for the extra boxes since we don't get Matrix Condition.

Skills would be the skill sets (is there ANY way to get these above 4 at chargen?) for all the good things they do....Cracking, Electronics, Tasking...are more needed.

Not really sure what to do for CF's. Was thinking about taking only a few at chargen, and then using sprites and threading for the rest. However threading the CF's that I do know to increase their rating.

Am I missing anything? Are there suggested Positive traits or whatever to help with this? Is burning a ponit of resonance for some cyber suggested? I'm not trying to min/max, but be good at what I do. The GM I've got can be fairly brutal (second run and my Body 18 (SR3 rules) sammy took 2 shots from panthers to the chest. And it wasn't because I was playing stupid.)

[Whipstitch]

Well, since you said you're aware that most of us think they're rather gimped, I'll assume you're not interested in hearing more doom and gloom so I'll just skip straight to the advice. You may want to swap your expectations around there a bit; generally I find it easier to be a good rigger and a fair hacker with a TM than vice versa. TMs suffer a bit in the hacking department because CFs are rather expensive and you can't really start out with all the Forms needed to REALLY hack well without heavy use of Registered Sprite services. That's not so big of a problem if you're a rigger, however, since you'd be concentrating primarily on the CFs needed to defend the team PAN (Analyze, Attack, Armor, maybe Black Hammer) and using Drones with decent Pilot attributes and Machine Sprites running Diagnostics and emulating Autosofts to do the rest your dirty work for you. I think nicely cybered Hackers with good Edge pools make the best overall matrix infiltrators due to their flexibility, but TMs really do make wonderful watchdogs and riggers thanks to their ability to have many li'l minions running the show for them and their natural bonuses to matrix perception; if anyone's going to spot an intruding corp hacker looking to wrest control of the team's assets away, it'll be the TM. YMMV.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

So if they ARE gimped in the hacking department (which is what I'm figuring out) what are way to ungimp them? What houserules or whatnot are people using? My GM is very laid back, and is willing to help out in regards to getting a PC to fit an idea...especially when a TM SHOULD be the best hacker out there...at least from the sounds of the fluff.

[Nightwalker450]

My GM allows me to thread complex forms as a free action, and I can rethread them to boost them higher. This is the only change in my group, and my Technomancer has faired pretty well in hacking. Quite powerful, but he keeps me in pretty tight time limits so I don't have unlimited time to always thread ridiculusly high. (And a few bad rolls on fading resistances, and I'm suffering a few negs anyways (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Jaid]

actually, your goals are fairly achievable *if* you don't mind being fairly reliant on sprites and threading for any sort of uncommon program.

it's not hard to make a TM that can hack like crazy (if you include sprites, especially registered sprites, and threading), make the rigger cry when he sees your dicepool for remote controlling, and in general be quite good at matrix activities for short periods of time. the main problem is that doing so will leave your technomancer completely horrible at anything else you could possibly name. but if that doesn't bother you, then sure... you can have a technomancer do what you said you want. just make sure to get a PMV and never leave it, no matter what. and don't expect to be useful should you have to leave it.

(short version: TMs can hack, and rig, but are prohibitively expensive to the point of excluding any other role you might imagine if they choose to be reasonably good at both hacking and rigging).

[Kyoto Kid]

...my issue is they really suffer in the meat world. If you want to be remotely fast out of the Matrix you take a huge hit on your resonance. Mages (& even Adepts) have other ways to compensate for this. TMs don't. Having only1 IP when the lead starts a flyin' is really bad.

[Nightwalker450]

Jaid is right in expense. My character is having to pick up some other skills, but I find picking up Mechanic skills, and equipment to handle electronic B&E (maglocks and such) to be something I can make alot of use of. I can then use the Machine Sprites to diagnose, and help me to break these open quicker. But if you're doing alot of rigging, then you can have some drones to add to the physical world. And in that you should be good, since (as far as I can find) Technomancers will use their own response instead of the drones putting you on alot higher playing field then most riggers without having a heavily modified drone.

[Ryu]

You have to make use of compiled sprite services for hacking (the supporting service, kind of sprite does not matter), and bolster that up with low-level threading. You can buy enough CFs to cover the needed allways-present programs. Matrix Combat and Stealth/Protection are key there. You will want a starting resonance of 5 for high CF ratings.

You should specialise in Machine Sprites. You need those for rigging, and the support service does not make demands for sprite abilities; it is pretty general. Take note that a drone rigger does not need to jump into drones, those can do pretty well without outside help, as THEY can use programs.

You can handle matrix combat by sprite-supporting your Attack CF (one you should have). Thats an effective Attack rating of 10, 12 with threading+2, so you will not need high mental stats for matrix combat. And combat will be over after (sprite rating) rounds, when the service expires.

[Cardul]

My feeling is: buff up your software skill, take a specialization in it for threading, and give yourself the key programs as CF: Analyze, Armour, Spoof, Stealth, and Exploit. Anything else, you thread. Admittedly, my GM has to decided to go with my idea of allowing a TM to upload programs from their Commlink, and use their brain as a commlink, with the CF's not counting against the program limit..but making using a program count as a complex action. She feels that balances the TM out...she is kind of expecting to see this show in in Unwired, too...as it kind of makes sense..(And I am the poor schmuck the group voted on to make their characters, since they are completely unfamiliar with the system, so my GM and I have been doing alot of talking....group consists of: Gunslinger Adept, Shinto Priestess, Tank Sam, Hacker/Technomancer, and my Wheel-man)

[Ravor]

Bah, just use bio for your meat IPs like any sensible Adept or Mage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Brol_The_Mighty]

So for at least in chargen, would u suggest to just give a TM a few more BP's to be on par with the rest of the group then? If so, how many? And another fix as count threading as a free action?

[Ravor]

Giving any one character more BPs then the others is a VERY bad idea, especially in a classless system.

[Whipstitch]

TMs aren't terrible enough to require extra bps. You can hack exceedingly well as a TM if you super specialize and always, always, ALWAYS have Registered Sprites on hand. Heck, if you build it correctly and have enough high rating Sprite Services Registered and ready to go, the super specialist TM can do just about anything on the Matrix better than a more generalized Rigger TM could hope to, and if he can manage to acquire the drones he had to pass up on at character creation out on the street he can actually likely beat the Rigger/TM in that area too, since he can compile Machine Sprites just as easily if not better. But the problem there is that your eally ARE a super specialist, and if you don't have a big mess of Registered Sprites on hand all the time you're pretty vanilla, so it takes a lot of preparation; sometimes more than is practical, especially when you consider such a character can't really afford to start with many resources.

On the other hand, a focused TM Rigger who skimps on CFs and diverts some nuyen and a point of Essence into stuff like SkillWires, Trauma Dampers, some good Drones and maybe a Muscle Toner is considerably less gimped meatside because he's always got a few toys to play with and can still be pretty good at creating Sprites who can help him out in other areas as needed. The problem there, unfortunately, is that CFs are so expensive that if you don't get a bunch at a decent rating at creation you likely won't be able to afford to get them at all, or at least not for a very long time, at any rate. In the longrun it's probably best to super specialize as a TM at first and branch out into meat skills and acquire drones once in play, but in the short term you're a LOT more likely to make it to the end of the run alive if you've got a nice sturdy van to camp out in, some drones watching your six and know your way around a Predator.

[Ryu]

I would absolutely get the maximum number/rating of CFs allowed at chargen. As Whipstich said, those are Expensive later on. At chargen I´d go with Resonance 5 and not install anything. Later on you walk the suggested implant route, resonance is not important after you bought your starting CFs.

Second, not only is the char super-specialised. You also have to know what you are doing with it. If you do not combine sprite services and threading, your potential is suddenly much lower, but you still paid more than the hacker. On the upside, you can get an easy and free +7DP mod on everything matrix, or +5/+2 to distribute.

Do not buy drones. Steal drones. Nothing with standard device rating will notice a hacking attempt with Stealth 10 running (You might want to take user access on rating 6 systems).

[Whipstitch]

Stealing drones is a wonderful way to get killed. They're typically Stealth RFID tagged and ran by talented people whose entire job is to notice when they're missing. Pulling a Jedi Mind trick on 'em and having the li'l buggers go about their normal routines as you sneak through the compound is one thing, but having them suddenly start acting up is something you should only do on your way out if things are going south to begin with. As a GM, I actually don't run under the assumption that corps run networks that are totally segregated with wireless inhibiting paint all over the place; I run under the assumption that corps run things wirelessly so if things are getting fishy they can have the corp equivalent of FastJack jump into Hotsim from a full continent away and come in to clean up the mess.

Anyway though, Ryu's advice isn't wrong, per se, we're just coming from opposite ends of the spectrum; who's right here depends on whether you can survive long enough as a super specialist to acquire the stuff needed to get your character out of which corner you choose to paint them into.

[Ryu]

Stealing drones is a wonderful way to get killed. They're typically Stealth RFID tagged and ran by talented people whose entire job is to notice when they're missing. Pulling a Jedi Mind trick on 'em and having the li'l buggers go about their normal routines as you sneak through the compound is one thing, but having them suddenly start acting up is something you should only do on your way out if things are going south to begin with. As a GM, I actually don't run under the assumption that corps run networks that are totally segregated with wireless inhibiting paint all over the place; I run under the assumption that corps run things wirelessly so if things are getting fishy they can have the corp equivalent of FastJack jump into Hotsim from a full continent away and come in to clean up the mess.

Anyway though, Ryu's advice isn't wrong, per se, we're just coming from opposite ends of the spectrum; who's right here depends on whether you can survive long enough as a super specialist to acquire the stuff needed to get your character out of which corner you choose to paint them into.

I think our positions are not that opposite. If you take over and keep enemy drones if things go south, you gain drones ( If you brought your own, any losses are on your ressources). The usual hardware upgrades only riggers will have can easily be done home. And complete disassembly finds all stealth tags. Those don´t have ECCM capability, so keep them suppressed until the drone is "clean". And a TM can fight an elite decker - think Attack rating 12...

[Whipstitch]

The matrix isn't about winning combat though, it's about accomplishing stuff so you can have better control of the meatworld/information. While you're busy fighting off elite hackers or even a few mook hackers the stuff that you were supposed to be doing in the meantime isn't happening unless you're burning through registered services at an astounding rate. Stealing drones is an option, but it's not always a very good one and having a few "clean" drones of your own is very sensible. Basically, what I'm saying here is that TMs are great in hypothetical situations but they're extremely vulnerable to attrition and a few bad die rolls 'cuz they rely on Threading, Compiling, Registered Services and Hotsim to get things done; taking on a tertiary goal/risk like stealing a few drones can stretch their resources pretty thin.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

All of this sounds like good idea. I'll take a look at chargen, and see what I can come up with, and then post it on here for review, if you don't mind. Maybe point out some obvious holes, or things that I forgot, or went overboard with. My biggest question is why does everyone suggest to only get Resonance 5 instead of 6?

[Cthulhudreams]

Because your short on BP as is, and the 6th point of resonance costs 25 BP, whereas the 5th only cost 10.

[Fortune]

Because your short on BP as is, and the 6th point of resonance costs 25 BP, whereas the 5th only cost 10.

Whereas that 6th point will only cost 18 Karma after chargen.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

Okay, so I'm trying to actually build up a standard BP TM....and I have NO idea how to get the stats to work. Limited to a max of 200 BP's to attributes and even with only getting Int, Log, Resonance, and Will to 5...you're already talking 200 BP's! Obviously you can't put all the needed stats to 5. Therefore I'm thinking to sacrifice 25 BP's to be a Dwarf, giving me a starting Bod and Will of 2, and a Str of 3. Thus giving me 40 BP's for the price of 25. Now for the rest:

Race: Dwarf (25 BP)

Bod: 3 (10 BP)
Agi:1
Rea:3 (20 BP)
Str:3
Cha: 4 (30 BP)
Int: 5 (40 BP)
Log: 5 (40 BP)
Wil: 5 (30 BP)
Resonance 6 (50 BP)

Total Attributes: 170 BP's + 50 BP for Resonance

Skills: 120 BP's
Cracking Skill Group 4 (40 BP)
Electronics Skill Group 4 (40 BP)
Compiling 6
Registering 4

Positive Qualities: 15 BP's
Codeslinger (10 BP) not sure which matrix action to put this into
Technomancer (5 BP)


Negative Qualities: +45 BP's (thus giving a net bonus of 30 BP's)
Addiction,Mild(Alcohol): +5BP's
Spirit Bane(Earth): +10 BP's
Back Luck: +20 BP's
Allergy,Mild(Sunlight):+10 BP's


Now, this leaves me with 65 BP's left.

CF's 30 BP's

Armor 6 (6 BP's)
Stealth 6 (6 BP's)
Analyze 6
Browse 6
Command 6
Attack 6 (6 BP's)
Edit 6
Exploit 6 (6 BP's)
ECCM 6 (6 BP's)
Scan 6

This leaves 35 BP's for resources, contacts, and other skills if wanted (if there are some I missed, please point them out.)

So what do you think? A good skeleton of a build so far? Tweaks or flames?

*edited to reflect changes to skills, and adding a Resonance score. Still have 35 BP's.

[Lionhearted]

uh your build seem to lack a resonance score

[Ryu]

Armor 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Stealth 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Analyze 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Edit 5 (5 BP's) - Sprite is enough
Command 5 (5 BP's) - Good for Riggers
Attack 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Decrypt 5 (5 BP's) - Sprite is enough
Exploit 5 (5 BP's) - Good
Sniffer 5 (5 BP's) - Sprite is enough
Defuse 5 (5 BP's) - Sprite is enough

Use compiled sprites, always. When the services are consumed, you can simply compile a new one.

Replace Threading Group by Compile + Register, you won´t get much use out of Decompile. Give compile the 6.

Round the stats out by improving Body. You won´t get meaningful Reaction without ware, so wear armor. Save up money for implants, Karma also goes into physical attributes and skills.

[Brol_The_Mighty]

On the CF's listed as a Sprite being good enough, are you meaning to actually drop the CF? What CF would you suggest I pick up in replacement?

So aside from using a Sprite for Assist Operation task to add its rating in dice, what are other ways of jacking up the TM's Dicepool for the Matrix?

[Dashifen]

I notice that you're missing Browse and Scan. They could be left for Threading or Sprites, but they're also useful enough and relatively commonly needed that having them as complex forms is nice, too.