Getting Hosed By Magic Options

[DocTaotsu]

I've been running a SR game for a couple of sessions now and we've been having an excellent time. I keep adding pages to my "Why doesn't it never go smooth?" reference guide and my players keep staying alive and enjoying themselves. I was starting to feel really good about the game, feeling like I was doin my job of making the 6-8 hours they give up to play worth the time.

Than we took on a third player who wanted to be a mage.

The game was an exercise in frustration for a couple of reasons:
1. Player/GM not familiar enough with the magic rules
2. GM unable to fairly and consistently decide what a given spell could do.
3. Game just didn't flow and no amount of my patented "Gaming Gloss" could make it move forward at the speed we were used to. One player was brutally honest and said, "You know, I think I liked it better before we had to deal with magic."

The first two problems are clearly mine, and I figure that learning the rules and pounding out some house rules on spell effects will get us moving in the right direction. In particular we had a problem with Bind because the description really doesn't tell me how freaking powerful it is, in fact, aside from guarenteeing that it would effect a given target, I had no idea why a player would cast it at anyting higher than force 4. At the same time should a force 4 spell be able to lock up the wheel of a hardened combat vehicle? Shouldn't all those horsies make it hard to keep it bound? Should I do an extended opposed test of some sort (beyond the initial threshold test)? Gragh? What the hell do you all do with Ignite too? What's to keep a force 4 Ignite spell from lighting an entire tank or part there of on fire? It says in the description that it burns normally... last time I checked burning metal burns pretty damn hot and for freakin forever.

How do you all run magic so that it doesn't completely side track the game everytime the player wants to summon a spirit or cast a complex spell? How can I do this balancing without making it stupid easy for the the mage to "break" the universe? What's the best way to control the almost overwhelming power of a magic level 5 mage tooling around discretely lighting shit on fire or projecting all over the damn place?

I know I'm just being dense and unimaginative, so thanks in advance.

[MaxHunter]

Well, getting to know the rules is particularly important for any aspect of the game in play. More so with magic as it has obvious game-breaking possibilities. For starters, Ignite is a Permanent spell so it has to be sustained for a some time (force rounds IIRC) before it starts having an effect. That alone makes it more reasonable if not practically useless.

I do not know much about the bind spell, but for sure it has to beat the object resistance test at least and then you
could treat it as a barrier with armor/structure = force or force + nethits. Considering the amount of strength a Citymaster can exert (Body 20+) the spell would have to be much stronger and then you would get some balance. [mind you this is a quick idea without getting to see the books, as I would do while gaming, I indeed recommend that you read all the spells your caster has pretty closely and think in the "fine print"]


Thirdly, the answer to magic abuse is the same as the answer for hacker abuse or samurai owning the game. Opposition. There should be mages on the other side too. Its an Awakened world so it is a necessity for corps and stuff to enter the magic arms race or else they would be wiped out as the old United States of America. And they do. Care to learn about how to use magic (from your player, for example) and be sure to have mages and/or spirits on the other side. Be careful not to elevate the magic level too much, that is a delicate balance. I suggest that you start easy, but do not let the PC mage monopolize the magic department. It would not be realistic for the setting.

Also, this is not a GM-vs-Player thing. Do sit down with your player and review all his spells. Clear all your doubts before the game. Make sure that the player is informed on what you think the spell does, your particular take on the rules and / or any rules change/patch/house rules you might consider necessary. Give the player the chance to ret-con his spell list according to the results of our conversation. Be open, straightforward and informative but remember you are the one who cares for the welfare of the game, including your fun and the other players'.

Of course, you could go on the opposite direction and play SR without magic, but you would lose a great deal of the value of the game.

You are not being dense, I am -and will be- more than happy to share ideas with you and I am sure many others here have plenty of good solutions too. This forum is the right place to discuss this kind of things as my fellow forumites are quite knowledgeable and deeply committed to the game. You will get the anal-retentive bastards bit when you get to know us a little better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cheers! and happy gaming!

Max

[knasser]

I know I'm just being dense and unimaginative, so thanks in advance.

Everyone can get tripped up by magic, so don't worry about it. But it works very well and not too slow once you get used to it. I think I can answer some of your questions, not necessarily in order.

In particular we had a problem with Bind because the description really doesn't tell me how freaking powerful it is, in fact, aside from guarenteeing that it would effect a given target, I had no idea why a player would cast it at anyting higher than force 4.

Something pretty fundamental is wrong here. Maybe several things. Firstly, the description for Bind spells out that its effect is determined by net hits. That means that you're only determining the effect by how many hits your Magic + Spellcasting test beats the targets Strength + Counterspelling (the target may well not have any counterspelling as well). So there is no guarantee at all that a target will be affected. They might roll well, the mage might roll poorly.

Secondly, the maximum number of hits you can get on a spellcasting test is the Force of the spell. So if you cast the spell at Force 4, then the most effect that you can get out of it is 4 hits, even if the player rolls more than that on the spellcasting test.

The effect is listed as -1 to the opponent's Agility attribute per net effect and the target can attempt to break free. I can only see a couple of problems you might have run into to cause the problems. Either you missed the actual spell description and were working purely off the tables at the back of Street Magic, or the mage cast the spell no a vehicle / drone and you misread the Object Resistance Threshold table to mean the minimum force, rather than the minimum number of hits. A vehicle is a Highly Processed object meaning that you deduct the first three hits that are scored before you even consider any effect on the vehicle of the Bind spell. Body is normally used in place of Strength for vehicles so most vehicles should be able to break free fairly easily. As they don't have a direct equivalent to Agility, I would simply apply the net hits on the spell as a negative to the appropriate dice pool, e.g. for driving, shooting or whatever.

What the hell do you all do with Ignite too? What's to keep a force 4 Ignite spell from lighting an entire tank or part there of on fire? It says in the description that it burns normally... last time I checked burning metal burns pretty damn hot and for freakin forever.

Well I would normally only apply Ignite to things that can actually burn. Metal doesn't burn. You could reduce it to a plasma with a whacking amount of power, but even that's not technically "burning". Even if you allowed Ignite to affect a tank (which I would not, except perhaps for the ammo which would be out of sight anyway), it's not going to do much damage. For a start, it'd probably take a couple of combat turns to get the four hits you need to reach the threshold, secondly, 4DV is going to be shrugged off by an armoured tank anyway.

How do you all run magic so that it doesn't completely side track the game everytime the player wants to summon a spirit or cast a complex spell?

Practice. Well, practice and cheat sheets. Keep a handy reference until you have everything memorised.

How can I do this balancing without making it stupid easy for the the mage to "break" the universe? What's the best way to control the almost overwhelming power of a magic level 5 mage tooling around discretely lighting shit on fire or projecting all over the damn place?

This is a subject in and of itself. For a start, recognize that one of the things magic lacks is consistency. Certainly a mage can wreak havoc with a powerful lightening bolt. But can they do it ten times in a row? Nope - they'll knock themselves senseless with drain. The Samurai excels at shooting people all day. A mage does not, or else they tone down their power to achieve it. Likewise, remember that Spellcasting is a Complex action. The samurai is squeezing off a couple of bursts for every spell the mage fires off. And with likely having extra initiative passes, probably more.

Secondly, keep an eye on the various modifiers for spell casting. Anything that affects visibility, smoke, partial cover, etc. affects a spell casting test (except for indirect combat spells which are handled differently).

Thirdly, ensure that you are aware of the rules that hits are capped by Force and that hits only count after the Threshold has been reached for objects.

Fourth, be aware of the limits of astral projection. You can't read a trid screen from the Astral and you can't zip through earth.

Fifth, make judicious use of magical countermeaures - wage mages, watcher spirits, bound guardian elementals, dual-natured critters (especially useful in enclosed spaces such as underground), wards, background count (use this sparingly).

Six, take a similar approach to Matrix actions in that it's not always what you can do, but what you can do without being noticed. A lot of corps will have security arrangements for magical reinforcement and if they recognize that they are under magical attack, elementals can get there fast via the Astral plane. A need for stealth affects magicians just as much as samurai.

Seven, don't over do it. Magic is powerful and is meant to be powerful. It pays for it in that if a magician over uses it, they get hurt. That's particularly true for binding high force spirits.

Which reminds me - Eight, summoned and bound spirits are NOT secondary characters for the player. They remain under the GM's control and are intelligent beings. Be strict on the number of services and remember that the summoning process is not some game of legal contracting whereby if a player words things right a spirit has to be a totally obedient slave. Attack two different groups of people? That's two services right there. Heal me twice? That's two services. And a spirit is not obliged to spend Edge on a player's behalf. Do you put your very best into your job every day? If a magician really abuses spirits, they've even been known to spend Edge on their resistance test for Binding. The more powerful a spirit, the more it is its own individual.

I hope this helps. Keep the questions coming.

-K.

EDIT: I'll get you next time MaxHunter!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

OH THANK GOD.

I thought I was going crazy. I just wasn't understanding the threshold limit on processed items, I didn't realize that by overcoming it you are actually taking away from the net successes. Glorious. Now my player will be forced to use the spell interestingly (binding the catch on a door rather than binding the axle of a citymaster) and I don't have to make angry faces and shout "No! No that's stupid!"

All your suggestions are awesome and I'm glad I swallowed my pride and posted. I expect that my next magically augmented gaming session is going to be a great deal less frustrating. I can't thank you all enough.

Especially thanks for reminding me that a mage throwing high power spells around is roughly equivalent to a Sami carrying a panther assault cannon in his back pocket. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[knasser]

All your suggestions are awesome and I'm glad I swallowed my pride and posted.

There's nothing that prevents us from learning more than wanting to appear like we know stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Any question you don't know the answer to is a good one. Ask - we want to show that we know stuff! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Especially thanks for reminding me that a mage throwing high power spells around is roughly equivalent to a Sami carrying a panther assault cannon in his back pocket. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Yep. Magic is powerful, but like a Panther, the ammo is expensive. Do let us know how it goes second time around.

-K.

[DocTaotsu]

Oh, tell me about how you all handle karma awards and cash payouts? Also, do any of you still use the SOTA rules or do you all just assume Lifestyle keeps them up with the Johnsons?

I'd say that this runner team is just breaking into the Big Leagues as they've just finished up a string of high profile runs. They net about 5-10 karma a mission with 3-5 points on top of that for good RP and so forth. Each mission has been paying out 5-10k per runner but that seems a little high for me.

Basically, what kind of pay scale do you all use? I want to give them enough money to develop they're characters but limit it so they stay hungry.

[the_dunner]

Oh, tell me about how you all handle karma awards and cash payouts?

You might try taking a look at the Shadowrun Missions scenarios. Every adventure has detailed Karma and Nuyen rewards in the "Picking up the Pieces" chapter. The rewards we've used have been fairly focused on the goals you expressed.

[FriendoftheDork]

I'm guessing if you're having trouble with Magic, you don't have a hacker in this game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Karma awards: I've stopped giving individual karma and just give everyone the same, but still see how the party as a whole does things. 5-10 is a very high karma payout, and should only be given for very dangerous missions. And those 3-5 points for rp should be part of those 5-10 in the first place. Actually the book advises 1-3 karma for roleplay. But if you want a quick game it is not a problem.

Cash, well If they are getting what they should from those dangerous jobs, they should also get rich fairly quickly. 10k per runner is ok for the early jobs, but Big Leagues players will probably demand twice that or more. They'll still want more though, as there is always stuff to be had and people like getting better lifestyles. If they get too much, simply make jobs fewer and farther between. 1-2 a month is normal, but you can lower it further. Perhaps there is a crackdown going on and fixers laying low, or perhaps the big Corps need to spend less on "black" activities for awhile.

[DocTaotsu]

Hm... alright so I'll be scaling back those karma bonuses.

[Ian Argent]

Mechanically, I can't help you, I've never run a 4th ed game. I did run a 2e/3e game for almost a decade, though (with anywhere from 2 non-combat-focused characters to 12 frighteningly tactical players)...

It takes players who are willing to play it up - but my answer to magic has always been to "scare" the magicians. I've always portrayed magic as right on the edge of things man was meant to know. Astral space is not someplace you go casually, and spells can backfire. (With the new "glitch" rules it looks like that's easier to implement mechanically). But it does take players who will work with you...

[nezumi]

I'm guessing this is SR4 talk, but an old crotchety person like me can still put some stuff in, methinks...

Firstly, magic against vehicles is generally a losing proposition. Using a spell on the driver's steering wheel requires firstly you be able to see said steering wheel. Considering almost all vehicles use tinted windows, that means LOS isn't really possible. Ignite can't light the inside of the fuel tank because the caster can't SEE the inside of the tank.

If you're talking about using the Bind spell against the wheel, back when I was a young fragger you couldn't cast spells on components, only on the whole vehicle. So you'd be casting bind on the combat vehicle, which is a bit tougher (and yeah, the vehicle should get a chance to see if it's strong enough to break out of that too). You'd have to beat object resistance too, which would make the TN around 24 (although hear now you just use 4. A bit silly, if you ask me.)

[Ravor]

Something else to remember is that the Mage is very seldom going to get to use his full ( Magic 5 ) because of Background Count, and the corps aren't going to hire retarded children to design their security systems so when an alarm is sounded the lights are going to turn off, flashpacks will be set off, thermo smoke will pour out of the vents, and mold spores will we released into the air and I somehow doubt your Mage went the smart route and installed a shiney pair of tricked-out cybereyes so his spellcasting pool is getting hosed by all of the visability modifers that the corp is able to pile on.


Never forget the chewy goodness that is wards, that are easy enough to make that it is almost fragging impossible to go anywhere in the sprawl without bumping into several, so your Mage is either going to be popping them right and left or is going to have to recast his mojo time after time.

And remember that magic is rare enough that the corps sit up and take notice of it, and unless the Mage has been very, very careful he left his astral fingerprint laying around, whihc is a very, very bad thing.


"A good mage can kill you with her mind, but a great mage has the wisdom to use her trusty predator instead."

[knasser]

Okay. Since Ravor has emphasized that Background count is the norm, I'm going to offer my strong advice to DocTaotsu to use Background Count very, very sparingly. Nothing makes the game less fun for the player of a Mage than Background Count. It's not just adding extra opposition, it's taking points off a player's character sheet and very quickly leads to a feeling of why bother paying for points or initiating, when they just get taken away again.

Magic is no more balanced against guns in SR4, than Rocks are balanced against Scissors in Rock, Paper, Scissors. But just the same, the are balances in the game overall. Try the initial advice offered in this thread and add the Background Counts if you feel the need after playing a little longer.

The same applies to wards. Astral projection is part of what magicians do so use wards where appropriate not every time the player would gain something from astral projection. It's all too easy when you first get hit by a mage PC to react by slapping down magic any way you can. Better to take a more considered approach. The player is here to have fun, after all.

[ShadowDragon8685]

You're probably slightly overpaying on Karma, but you're being really stingy on Nuyen. The mage will quickly thrive in this environment, while your other characters will soon start to hate you.

Don't scale back the karma, though. Players really hate it when the rewards go down while the risk does not. They probably enjoy the high karma gains anyway, so I'd say just ramp up the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and settle in for a nice, high-power-curve game.

[FriendoftheDork]

Okay. Since Ravor has emphasized that Background count is the norm, I'm going to offer my strong advice to DocTaotsu to use Background Count very, very sparingly. Nothing makes the game less fun for the player of a Mage than Background Count. It's not just adding extra opposition, it's taking points off a player's character sheet and very quickly leads to a feeling of why bother paying for points or initiating, when they just get taken away again.

Magic is no more balanced against guns in SR4, than Rocks are balanced against Scissors in Rock, Paper, Scissors. But just the same, the are balances in the game overall. Try the initial advice offered in this thread and add the Background Counts if you feel the need after playing a little longer.

The same applies to wards. Astral projection is part of what magicians do so use wards where appropriate not every time the player would gain something from astral projection. It's all too easy when you first get hit by a mage PC to react by slapping down magic any way you can. Better to take a more considered approach. The player is here to have fun, after all.

Agreed about background count, it is not suppose to be everywhere. I haven't used it yet in my game, but it should be used at certain specific locations where you want to have some horror story take place.

About wards, yes you should think about where they should be. Not every Stuffer Shack is going to be warded, as astral sneaking is not a problem there. But they don't cost much either, so every corp building should have one or more of them, and no secure facility should be without it. It's like having a good maglock - if you have something worth alot more than the lock you should have it.

Also, alot of apartments are going to be warded, because magicians are scary and the public will easily buy based on fear. And magicians probably have full-time jobs making wards.

In my game, the wizard used to come back from astral space half dead every time, so he learned to be careful (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ravor]

knasser and I seldom agree, and when we do it's usually for conflicting reasons (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) , but I strongly suggest that you read Street Magic in general, especially the section about Background Count and Astral Security and then take it to the next logical step, and most of your magic-based problems should go away.

But then again, I always sit my wanna-be wizworms down and explain that Magic is powerful and scary, but only a very folling wizard would think that they could relay on their mojo alone, and that generally speaking Mages use mundane methods as much as possible, more Gandalf then DnD.

[DocTaotsu]

I think I'm going to be using liberal amounts of a Hellblazer style astral jaunt. If the player wants to go for an astral walk all the damn time he better be ready to meet the neighbors.

I agree with the limited background count, that's the equivalent of telling a sami he loses a point of agility because "There is something in the air." I've actually used a background count once but that was because the players were operating near an active Aztlan/Yucatan warzone where big honking war spirits were throwing around Force 8 Doom Balls. My reading of the material says that background count is something that's only generated by heavy magic use or something really unusual wandering around.

Wards are basically just temporary (unless they spend karma) astral barriers right? If a player wants to go through one they have to beat it up astrally or physically press through right?

[fool]

I don't know if thes things have been mentioned yet, but a couple thngs to keep in mind, los is key, magic does nothing if the mage doesn't have los. Except for indirect combat spells, you have to see the target so no binding up the axle of a city master.
Astrally projecting things can't effect normal world things, ever.
With karma awards it also depends on how quickly you and your players want the characters to advance.

[Fortune]

For starters, Ignite is a Permanent spell so it has to be sustained for a some time (force rounds IIRC) before it starts having an effect.

This is not true. Just like with Heal (or any other 'permanent' spell), the spell takes effect immediately, but needs to be sustained for a certain amount of time to make those effects last. If the spell is not sustained for the required time the effects disappear immediately.

[knasser]

This is not true. Just like with Heal (or any other 'permanent' spell), the spell takes effect immediately, but needs to be sustained for a certain amount of time to make those effects last. If the spell is not sustained for the required time the effects disappear immediately.

Ah, you're right in general, wrong in this unusual case:

The Ignite spell accelerates molecular motion in the
target, causing it to catch fire once the spell becomes permanent.

Ignite specifically works differently to the normal case.

@Ravor: Yes, you're right. We usually disagree on everything. But on the plus side, when we do agree on something, everyone knows to listen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fortune]

Curses! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

Oh well, half right is better than nothing, I guess. Thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[FriendoftheDork]

Wards are basically just temporary (unless they spend karma) astral barriers right? If a player wants to go through one they have to beat it up astrally or physically press through right?

Well the main thing about Wards is not that they may be hard to penetrate for astral beings and things (spells, foci), but that if someone even tries the owner knows it and can react. Thus basically it's a fence or armored door with alarms that specifically target magicians and spirits. And Since it only costs a hundred nuyen per force or something, it should be fairly ubiquitous.

Additionally if you have street magic you should check on the alternative wards, especially alarm wards should be fairly common as well, as it is very hard to detect for astral intruders. While high force wards can be used as deterrents, alarm wards are better employed to alert a facility against Shadowrunners.

There are ways to deal with wards, but they are not easy and most magicians would rather avoid them. Check out the Ward rules in the BBB for details, and alternative wards in SM.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, Ignite's a special case, but on the bright side, I think it's one of the few spells a small group could use to reliably assassinate someone via Ritual Magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Ravor]

knasser I don't know, I seem to recall the person we were disagreeing with simply asserting that we were both wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



DocTaotsu personally I compare Background Count to slapping a penality on a character from an allergy, it's part of doing biz, but to each their own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Riley37]

Note on Ignite and metal: Some metal burns under some circumstances. Iron doesn't burn in any circumstances you're likely to see; it oxidizes by rusting. Some sources say that the aluminum armor on the Bradley AFV and the M113 can ignite when hit by antiarmor weapons, and that the British warship _Sheffield_ burned due to its aluminum hull during the Falklands War. Magnesium is a metal and it definitely burns, as in magnesium flares. (Dammit, sometimes I wish I'd taken an actual chem course in college.)

I'd houserule that one could ignite paper with 1 hit, hair or dried firewood with 2, cotton clothing with 3, but generating ignition conditions comparable to the blast of a shaped charge warhead requires a LOT more hits, over and above Object Resistance.