Incompetence, appropriate vs cheesy use Options

[Mercer]

My favorite was my phys ad with Incompetence: Throwing. He had that limp, arm-push style because he never learned to throw as a kid. It never really came up, but it always made me chuckle.

Incompetence is not a flaw I take very often for the reasons listed in this thread (although now that its been mentioned, Incompetence: Con is a good one). I don't want to take a flaw that screws the character totally, but I don't want to take a flaw that never comes up, even if it is free points. Qualities are where I try to flesh the character out; because every shadowrunner of a particular niche has a somewhat similar set of abilities. I want flaws that will come up in play, but not ones that are necessarily punishing (except maybe Bad Luck, which I have some affection for).

But my feeling is, if a player takes Incompetence: Submarine Piloting with his samurai or mage, he or she is essentially saying to the game master, "At some point in this character's career, I must be locked alone in the piloting cabin of an out-of-control submarine, or as gamers we have simply failed."

[ElFenrir]

Buddy of mine has a guy with Incompetence: Intimidation. His character is just. not. threatening. in any way, shape or form. Even though he described him as a big, gun-toting guy(he hunted stuff like Behemoths and other big nasties, never, ever killed a human or metahuman), he's always nice, laid back, and was more a negotatiator than an intimidator. And im sure it could have come up eventually, when someone needed to be strongarmed.

Incomp: Con is a good one too, I agree.

I think any sort of Incompetence: Combat Skill is fine to take. You never know when the stuff's gonna come up; however, i wouldn't let, say a quadraplegic bunker rigger take it.

Again, it's a game to game basis. What's good in one might be inappropriate for another, as many have said. Simple as that.

(And yeah, im sort of in the boat of just giving more starting BPs anyway.)

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Redjack has enabled Custom Titles for those with a post count in excess of 2,500. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Heh...you know how long that's going to take me with my post rate?



Worst case I've seen is a technomancer with incompetence: every single weapon but gunnery until he capped his bp.

[Fortune]

Heh...you know how long that's going to take me with my post rate?

I was quite surprised that it was set so low. I was expecting 15,000 (next level past Immortal Elf). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jackstand]

The worst I´ve actually had submitted to me is Incompeteny:Cybernetics (on a soldier with little more than combat skills). That char not only didn´t know, he would never have wanted to use that skill, let alone learn it.

Did the character have any cyberware? If he did, he could have a lot of use for that skill, like knowing when he needed to get his cyberware checked out. Even if they run diagnostics on themselves, and send it to his commlink, the incompetence could just make it so he doesn't know what to do with the warnings they're throwing up. It'd get to be a problem once he's gone 15,000 miles without an oil change, and his cyberware starts breaking down.

[Feshy]

I always enjoyed making hackers with incompetence: seduction just for that total geek flair.

The way I see it, GM abuse of players should be directly proportional to player abuse of the rules. That tends to balance any problems I might run into.

[djinni]

No set of game rules is perfect, and ensuring that a player(s) are not abusing them to the detriment of the campaign is one of the duties of a GM. If a player is putting up a big stink about your not allowing some of the more silly abuses of incompitance (or other flaws) he may not be the best fit for your group/campaign.

Any player who tries to "get something for nothing" is no longer playing the same game you are. they are playing "Player vs. GM" and in many cases it is a warranted approach, which should instead be met with simply leaving the group.

But by taking Incompetance: Pistols you're describing a weapon expert who is incapable of successfully firing a pistol, not someone who does it poorly, and that strikes me as odd.

maybe he has nerve trauma that prevents him from firing a weapon like a pistol, he just can't bend his fingers right....the weight of the heavier weapons compensates, or the steady second hand alleviates the issue....there are many ways to look at it, don't just assume the textbook example

[Cain]

The problem here is that Incompetences tend to jump from "total freebies" to "Completely crippling" without much middle ground. Even laying aside total cheese maneuvers like a non-Otaku taking Incompetence: Registering, there's the trick of taking an Incompetence in a skill you can't default to. For example, many GM's would allow it if it was a mage taking Incompetence: Banishing; but what about a non-decker taking Incompetence: Software?

And even the "middle ground" choices can turn to complete character-wreckers in the hands of an average GM. Incompetence: First Aid can turn applying a band-aid into further damage. Incompetence: Con also covers seduction, so now the completely forthright and honest guy can't get a date, and can't even flirt with the attractive mark. And so on.

As far as GMing goes: In addition to playing with two, I *was* one on those GM's. I got over the worst of it, mostly thanks to the Harlequin campaign, but I made most of the horrific mistakes we hear about. GM abuses are common, and every one is committed by a GM who thinks he's good. I like built-in anti-GM-abuse mechanics, since they help me avoid regressing to past bad habits. And I think all GM's who are honest with themselves like similar things as well, to help keep them playing it straight.

[Kyoto Kid]

I was quite surprised that it was set so low. I was expecting 15,000 (next level past Immortal Elf). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

...I'm glad it was before, though I was expecting it to be at GD level (5,000). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[/Derail]

[ShadowDragon8685]

...I'm glad it was before, though I was expecting it to be at GD level (5,000). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[/Derail]

I was just high enough to afford it. ^_^

[DTFarstar]

I still need like 1800 posts. Teach me to stay silent for the first like 6 months I was around.


Chris

[Fortune]

Well, one thing is for sure. Very few Dumpshockers are incompetent at Derailing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

Social incompentencies are something I find endlessly amusing. If someone were to take the whole Social group as a incompetent I'd probably let him take 15 extra points for it.

I'd also force him to deal with people constantly, screw him when he gets conned by everyone and their uncle (Oh! That does sound like a good cause, let me give you my banking information..."), and generally make his life miserable until he decides he should spend the karma to buy off at least part of his incompetence.

I also agree with Mercer, if I as a player take an incompetence I expect, no DEMAND, that a GM exploit it for dramatic/comedic effect at some point in the game. Everything on a character sheet and in a background should be up for use to drive a plot forward.

In related news I love players who take an incompetence in something but RP a character who still thinks they're hot shit in it.
"Dude, let me drive, I'm like this close to being a rigger."

[Rasumichin]

Social incompentencies are something I find endlessly amusing. If someone were to take the whole Social group as a incompetent I'd probably let him take 15 extra points for it.

You mean, as in taking the 20 BP uncouth handicap?

[Fortune]

You mean, as in taking the 20 BP uncouth handicap?

Uncouth still allows a character to gain Social skills, albeit at a more expensive rate. Incompetence bars the character from learning a Skill at all.

[Rasumichin]

Admittedly, various incompetences allow for more effective crippling of a character than uncouth, uneducated etc.

[Fortune]

Admittedly, various incompetences allow for more effective crippling of a character than uncouth, uneducated etc.

Those are crippling enough, and I would never take them by choice for a character.

[Ryu]

If all karma you paid extra was counted against buying of Uncouth/Uneducated, would you reconsider? (1192 to go, good that my postings/day average results from a long time of lurking)

[DocTaotsu]

If you're taking a negative I hope you're doing it to make your character interesting and not to min/max.

That might be hoping too much.

Also, someone with incompetence and uncouth is in for a world of hurt. A person who has no social skills can at least try to conceal that nature. An uncouth person will make it obvoius they just aren't very good at life.

[Rasumichin]

Those are crippling enough, and I would never take them by choice for a character.

I wouldn't, either, but there's those dark rumors of sadistic players who enjoy torturing their own PCs by making them deiberately prone to being stuck in terrible situations.

If all karma you paid extra was counted against buying of Uncouth/Uneducated, would you reconsider? (1192 to go, good that my postings/day average results from a long time of lurking)

Well...no, i don't think so.
I'd rather kill off my characters with addictions and gremlins.

[kanislatrans]

The way I see it, GM abuse of players should be directly proportional to player abuse of the rules. That tends to balance any problems I might run into.

This pretty much sums it up for me.
As a GM I'd say" If your gonna take Incompatence :animal husbandry, be prepared to spend a lot of "special time" with sheep." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Raizer]

In my campaign I allowed our mage to take Incompetence: All Firearms for 15 pts. And I know its come up a few times. I think even once he used a gun just to threaten someone and ended up ejecting the clip. Good times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ravor]

Fragging double post.

*Edit*

I guess I must have taken Incompetence: Posting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Ravor]

Arcana for Mages, sure, it prevents them from designing their spells or joining a group, but all-in-all seems about right for the points.

[Rasumichin]

Arcana for Mages, sure, it prevents them from designing their spells or joining a group, but all-in-all seems about right for the points.

I don't know, depends on how long the campaign is running.
Just think of how much additional karma they will have to spend when initiating without a group.
In really long-term play, this can be a pain in the ass well exceeding the 5 BP you got "for free" at character creation.

However, first buying off the handicap to reflect that a self-educated street shaman has to learn the very basics of higher magic sounds quite interesting from a RP point.