Sr4 Shaman A State Of Mind? Options

[Slymoon]

Next series of statements/ questions.
Again please bare with me as I am struggling to Grok SR4 and restrain SR1-3 for a bit.

SR3 Shaman:
Inherently different from hermetics given Totems are required and such you get advantages and disadvantages.

SR4 Shaman:
In name only.
A stock standard shaman and hermetic are identical save for the title you put on your paper and the RP you include (if you do). If you want to make a more 'traditional' shaman it costs you 5 more build points, however it is clearly an advantage with few disadvantages. (which is good since it costs build points)
However odd it may be a Hermetic can also decide to have a Bear Mentor spirit.

hmm...

So my question is:
Are Shaman/ Hermetic only a state of mind in SR4. Does this encourage RP, discourage min/ maxing. (I never saw an issue with Shaman min/maxing in SR3)

Lastly what is the benefit of a physical adept in purchasing a mentor spirit? Friendly conversation?

[Jackstand]

Physical Adepts actually aren't allowed to buy a mentor spirit. Some of them, though, like Rat, would give them bonuses to active skills, if they could. Besides that, they would be like the shamanic way adepts in SR3, where they emulate their mentor. I guess they get that without spending any points in SR4, though.

[Jaid]

adepts being able to have a mentor spirit is a little up in the air if you're a RAW zombie (says no in one place and yes in another), but it has been mentioned that the intention was that they could (though most of them aren't nearly as good for adept as for magician or mystic adept).

as far as shamans, basically yes, it is largely a difference in RP. there are different drain stats of course, and different spirits available to different traditions, but if your GM approved it you could totally create a new tradition called shamanism mk II that is exactly identical to hermetic magic except in fluff.

this has it's good points and it's bad points: it's good for people who want to be able to design their own traditions, it's good for people who are worried about internal party balance, and it's good for people who would rather make up their own fluff anyways. it's not so good for people who enjoyed the mechanical differences, who worry their players will min/max themselves an 'uber tradition', and for people who don't feel comfortable making up their own fluff. SR4 is just one of those games where you need a good GM for it to work well, and this is one of the areas where that shows imo.

[Ravor]

Personally I like the fact that the Sixth World seems to be movcing towards the UMT. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Synner]

SR4 Shaman:
In name only.
A stock standard shaman and hermetic are identical save for the title you put on your paper and the RP you include (if you do). If you want to make a more 'traditional' shaman it costs you 5 more build points, however it is clearly an advantage with few disadvantages. (which is good since it costs build points)
However odd it may be a Hermetic can also decide to have a Bear Mentor spirit.

Street Magic goes into the many faces of mentor spirits (and not totems per se), what a mentor represents and what they mean within the paradigm of various traditions. Bear is an "archetype" mentor, meaning that for a hermetic this might translate to a representation of a set of ideals associated with a healer archetype - manifest in a higher spirit he calls "Aesculapius", "Gabriel," or "Dr. House" for that matter (note - this is no different from the way Totems were addressed by different "Shamanic traditions" in SR3).

I should also clarify that the same form of differentiation between mechanics and actual applies to other spirits in SR4. While fire elementals, spirits of the fiery firmament, the spirit of Mt. Rainer, the hosts of the archangel Michael, etc are all mechanically grouped as "Fire Spirits," in the setting they are all different entities with different appearances, different forms, different personalities and mannerisms.

So my question is:
Are Shaman/ Hermetic only a state of mind in SR4. Does this encourage RP, discourage min/ maxing. (I never saw an issue with Shaman min/maxing in SR3)

And yet there were balance issues. In SR3 Shamans could call up spirits at will for 0 cost pretty much anywhere they went. Hermetics had to regularly spend nuyen to bring elementals into play. Shamans got totem modifiers that potentially provided min-maxing bonuses that hermetics could never have, and most of the restrictions totems imposed were false limiters or simply roleplaying directions. Shamans didn't also didn't require magical libraries.

Many people did prefer it that way, that the roleplaying elements were underscored by mechanical differences. However, balancing became increasingly more complex when further traditions were added such as Voodoun (inherently weaker from a purely min-max perspective than the original two), Wuxing (almost halfway between Shamans and Hermetics), and Path of the Wheel (again a bunch of free bonii for elven magicians). Every other tradition that was introduced into the game needed either entirely unique mechanics (a la Voodoun) or was shoehorned it a "variant" of the two original traditions -again some people liked that but it was never inherently balanced or particularly logical given the way the setting was represented.

With SR4 we took the opportunity to wipe the slate clean. It's long been established in SR canon that the magician's beliefs, cultural background, and his inner nature that determine his magical expression and the tradition he follows (though some believe Totem's grant magical power there's the issue of Magus gene). It follows that all traditions are therefore inherently equal and no better than any other; they are paradigms, mental constructs, symbols and tropes that a magician is trained in and that provide the tools to channel mana - and that's how we addressed them in SR4.

Street Magic introduces another 20 or so traditions that follow the same mechanics base as the original two, adding only one fundamental twist to the system - possession traditions.

Mechanical imbalances are minimized (though some will argue the spirit associations make certain traditions more or less useful to shadowrunners) even between normal traditions and possession traditions (introduced in Street Magic) - and the differences (besides the different magical associations and Drain attributes) are essentially defined by how the character's understanding of his magic and how the player roleplays it. This may not seem like much differentiation, but ultimately even in SR3 a shaman was throwing stunbolts just like a hermetic - we just followed that through by saying magic is mechanically the same whatever form it takes and streamlining the rules into a single consistent (and relatively balanced) set.

Lastly what is the benefit of a physical adept in purchasing a mentor spirit? Friendly conversation?

There are few Mentor Spirits that do give non-magic skill bonuses but for the most part it would be a RP gimmick for a follower of the Animal/Totem Way.

[FriendoftheDork]

Just to chime in, another mechanical advantage in SR3 for Shamans was the fact that they didn't need an extremely expensive library. That fact alone meant that many chose to play Shamans rather than Magicians and then ignore alot of the Shaman fluff.

Now at least you can play what you want without having to consider what is best, so it's a good change IMO. But I might consider either forcing Shamans to take a Mentor Spirit or give them for Free, and in return demand alot of "spiritual" fluff.

[Cardul]

Just to chime in, another mechanical advantage in SR3 for Shamans was the fact that they didn't need an extremely expensive library. That fact alone meant that many chose to play Shamans rather than Magicians and then ignore alot of the Shaman fluff.

Now at least you can play what you want without having to consider what is best, so it's a good change IMO. But I might consider either forcing Shamans to take a Mentor Spirit or give them for Free, and in return demand alot of "spiritual" fluff.

My own take is more like this on the SR4 Shamans: Hermetics are the formulaic guys. Shamans, though, are more of an ecstatic tradition. They are free form, their magic is much more personalized then a Hermetic's. Mentor Spirits represent almost "priestly" shamans, ones who take one spirit archetype and gling to it with both hand. Those without a mentor spirit, though, are the one who go "This is healing, so I shall call upon the knowledge of Bear, while that istrickery, and so, I shall call upon the knwledge of Raven." A Hermetic who takes a Mentor Spirit is not really having a spirit talk to him, instead, certain aspect of his personality inherently shape his magic to be more like that of the Mentor Spirit, since Hermeticism is, philosophically, about magic being the imposition of your Will upon Magic.

*chuckles, and has always wondered: what would a Nethermancer from ED be in Shadowrun?*

[FriendoftheDork]

My own take is more like this on the SR4 Shamans: Hermetics are the formulaic guys. Shamans, though, are more of an ecstatic tradition. They are free form, their magic is much more personalized then a Hermetic's. Mentor Spirits represent almost "priestly" shamans, ones who take one spirit archetype and gling to it with both hand. Those without a mentor spirit, though, are the one who go "This is healing, so I shall call upon the knowledge of Bear, while that istrickery, and so, I shall call upon the knwledge of Raven." A Hermetic who takes a Mentor Spirit is not really having a spirit talk to him, instead, certain aspect of his personality inherently shape his magic to be more like that of the Mentor Spirit, since Hermeticism is, philosophically, about magic being the imposition of your Will upon Magic.

*chuckles, and has always wondered: what would a Nethermancer from ED be in Shadowrun?*

Well can't say I disagree - this is more or less my take on it as well. Well, I guessing forcing a mentor spirit is unnecessary, but I will require players to roleplay a shaman differently than a hermetic. ED? Erfworld?

[hobgoblin]

there was rules for shamans and shaman like magic users that "used" a different totem on different days and so on...

also, while i loved reading about voodoo in awakenings, that it had a rules set all its own, with only the most basic of tests in common with the others (and dont get me started on elven path magic) it made it to much complex as the moment someone wanted to play something else then a classical mage one had to wrap one head around yet another rules system.

today SR is simple, one or two numbers is the dice pool, 5 or better is a hit, you either try to get more hits then the opponent or aim for a minimum number of them. beyond that the rest are just modifiers.

oh and the hermetics no longer use libraries. now they both use a generic "lodge" to learn, research and cast ritual magic...

[Rasumichin]

it's good for people who want to be able to design their own traditions, it's good for people who are worried about internal party balance, and it's good for people who would rather make up their own fluff anyways.

Since i fall under all 3 categories, i just love how the magic system has turned out in SR4.
Moreover, i definitely prefer streamlined, consistent rules sets, they are more intuitive and also appeal more to me from an aesthetic viewpoint.

SR4 is just one of those games where you need a good GM for it to work well, and this is one of the areas where that shows imo.

Need of a "good GM" is, imho, always a sign that a system is inherently broken.
However, i would not apply this label to SR4- what it suffers from, though, is a tendency towards unclear wording of certain rules passages.
Now that we talk about it :

There are few Mentor Spirits that do give non-magic skill bonuses but for the most part it would be a RP gimmick for a follower of the Animal/Totem Way.

So, the assumption that mentor spirits can be bought as a quality by adepts is correct?
I mean, if it's just an RP gimmick, there's no need to charge 5 BP for it, you just put it in the backstory and insert some description here and there.
But the non-magic skill bonus bit sounded interesting to me from the beginning.
Would it be possible to create an adept that does receive the boni of mentors such as rat, cat or owl?

ED? Erfworld?

Earthdawn.
You know, that RPG set in the 4th world/SR-past.

[Malicant]

ED? Erfworld?

Infidel! Wait till I find my Shatter Pattern Grimoire... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

ED is Earthdawn btw. Hm... Nethermancer... of to my books, there is work to be done.

[Fortune]

... and has always wondered: what would a Nethermancer from ED be in Shadowrun?

An Immortal Elf. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Slymoon]

I see everyones point, though in my personal experience I didn't find shaman to be any better than hermetics.
I suppose it may be that I did not play many public/ convention games. Nearly every game I have played or run has been with the same 6 persons (not that every game was with all 6 mind you or at the same time). I commonly had Hermetics and or/ Shaman players in the group and neither of which outshown the other.

The hermetic by far was more restricted in his mobility (library, conjuring areas), but in the way of elementals he could bring far more power. Elementals were typically deemed a group cost and so came out of contingency fund just like drones or vehicles. There are some RP exceptions which was dealt with in RP.

The shaman in contrast was limited in the amount of spirits he could bring to the fray. Great Forms changed that a bit, but not unduely, as a Great form storm spirit brought all sorts of security hell down on the group.

To note, I did play towards the shaman weakness. Not as an "I'm going to get you GM" but I didn't change the story arcs to accomodate. So it was often that the shaman really was at a disadvantage on certain runs.