Balance Issues, SR3 & Firearms vs. Sorcery Options

[bwdemon]

I've been working with SR3 for so long now that I forgot some of the things that set me off when I first looked at the revision. Among those was the switch from a single Firearms skill to the former concentrations thereof. While that alone didn't bother me (I approved of it wholeheartedly), the fact that they did not do this to Sorcery was wrong.

Someone who has the Sorcery skill, absent modifiers for totems or whatnot, can cast each and every single type of spell equally well. Illusions, combat, manipulations, etc... the caster can throw them all around with no difference between them. There should be variation. Magicians should be allowed to learn only what they want to and to gain some real benefit for choosing to focus. Magicians who want to do everything should have to commit the appropriate amount of skill points toward doing so.

Now, I understand that spare skill points are difficult to come by for the starting magician. They've either got limited open priority slots or limited build points. Going to a system that divided up sorcery into its component concentrations would mean that the purse strings get a little tighter for the magically inclined. To that I say... so?

Magic is worth far more than the priority or the build points required for it. The stealth aspect alone makes magic the "best" possible thing to go with in the game. By this, I mean that it carries the least amount of strings and offers the greatest benefits for the cost. It doesn't make any character more of a "character" than another, but it surely makes them more effective for the same cost. That's a key imbalance that I think could have been addressed with a simple change that was already in place for Firearms.

Was this was even considered during the revision process for SR3 and, if so, why wasn't it used? If SR4 ever appears, is this the sort of change that might be made? Anyone out there use this as a house rule?

[Fortune]

I think that there are a lot more irritating 'general' skills than Sorcery, like Computers, Athletics, Etiquette, or even Biotech.

I have no problem with the Sorcery skill as it stands. Casting a spell is casting a spell. It doesn't really matter which category they are from. Next you'll be wanting to split up Conjuring into Spirit types.

[Diesel]

I think firearms are actually a little better off at the moment. They don't leave your "aura" around, other people can't help you versus them (spell pool), you can SL, all that. The mage has a lot going for him too, but he has enough karma sinks that he doesn't need a bunch of skills too.

[bwdemon]

I actually wouldn't mind splitting up conjuring into spirit types. I had thought about posting it, but it wasn't anywhere near as offensive to me as the Sorcery thing.

[Fortune]

As Diesel stated, Spellcasters are already Karma drains. That is one of their biggest penalties. I don't see the need to make it any worse.

[Kagetenshi]

Stealth aspect? What stealth aspect? About half of all spellslingers (shamans) get blatantly obvious shamanic masks whenever they use spells. Hermetics have stealth aspects, but that's balanced by the fact that they require expensive libraries and a fair amount of forethought for effective elemental use.

~J

[Moonstone Spider]

I suspect he was talking about invisibility spells and whatnot when he meant stealth.

However an invisibility spell isn't really a huge step up over a ruthenium polymer cloak with extra cameras. Everything magic can do can generally be done in some other way. Maybe not as well in some things but in other's it's easier. Don't underestimate the edge good cyberware and equipment can give a street sam.

[Arethusa]

Even so, it is worth noting that a mage can see on the astral and adapt accordingly. A soldier that's chromed up and wearing a ruth bodysuit is still a shining beacon on the astral (not to mention fairly visible on thermal and the like). Magic does create some disturbingly one sided dynamics. Whether they're balanced is debatable. Whether such one-sided elements are desirable thematic aspects in a game is another matter entirely, and, personally, this is one of my absolute biggest problems with Shadowrun.

[Diesel]

The soldier, however, does not need to hit himself in the head with a hammer every time he throws a grenade or fires his weapon. :D

[Moonstone Spider]

True dat, about an hour ago I was playing a game and knocked out 5 guards in a hallway with a single (Very good roll) concussion minigrenade. Trying to get the same effect with a stunball would probably leave the mage little better off than the guards from drain. Possibly worse off from physical drain if the mage wanted a power as high as an average grenade.

Plus I was rigging a drone that fired the grenade at the time and there's no way in hell the mage could be safe and sound 5 floors above the guards at the time. . .

Also the advantages of astral perception can be overstated at times. Sure it's handy. . . but as soon as you go astral you run afoul of astral barriers and angry spirits on that plane that the mundane doesn't have to worry about. That's why Dual-natured is listed as a Flaw, not an edge.

[John Campbell]

[Solidcobra]

How to say this....
firearms vs. spellslinging....

Predator: Any geek can get one, most geeks can use one, in a well trained hand she does 9S damage
Powerbolt: Only a highly initiated mage can use a powerbolt of power 9, meaning that he's spent a lot of karma, AND the poor guy has to resist 5S stun (i think) if he uses it....

Grenade: Throw, booom, yay! 9S!
Powerball: Resist 5D stun damage magey! AND spend a load of karma to get it....

now, this is only a handgun and a grenade....

Let's go into overkill mode....

SMG with 10 Recoil Compensation: 16D!
Powerbolt: ....... honestly...... same effect, so much karma it ain't even funny AND you have to eat 8D stun, most likely leaving you worse off than the troll you used it on


hey, that's what makes SR cool, non-mages can deal damage! As can mages, they just have to grab a weapon...

[thunderchild]

[Frag-o Delux]

[moosegod]

[Backgammon]

After quickly reading a few posts:

A) Spells go through armour, unlike physical weapons. They are also resisted by Will, which is generally somewhere between lower and MUCH lower then body.

B) Mages do not exist solely to be combat mages. If you're gonna compare a combat mage to a sammy, then consider elemental manipulation spells, elemental backup, foci use, etc., not just "standart manbolt vs Heavy pistol". Combat mages are very viable, if that's what you want. But you know, sometimes it's not about killing. You *can* taylor a mage to fit the role you want him to do.

C) There are specialised mages. They're called elementalists, and pretty much do exactly what you want here.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[bwdemon]

By "stealth", I meant that a magician can walk anywhere and look normal. Cyberware scanners won't pick up anything on them. A pat-down won't discover stunbolts or any other spells. Don't even get me started on the imbalances of astral projection...

The firearm/grenade comparison has neglected quite a few things so far. Yes, the wielder of a gun doesn't have to make a drain check. However, they do have to carry a firearm/grenade around with them, risking discovery and all sorts of other unpleasantness. Once they use up whatever ammo or grenades they have, they have to use something else. A magician never runs out of "ammo" for their spells. Also, firearms/grenades have to deal with armor, something that a magician never has to worry about with combat spells. Finally, spells can target attributes other than Body, allowing them to bypass the attribute that normally prevents damage (and is typically increased because of it) for lower attributes like Willpower.

Elementalists/shamanists don't accomplish what I'm looking for. A magician should be able to devote themselves to, for example, illusions and manipulations and not have to attach themselves to the limited scope of an elementalist. I just don't feel that any mage should be allowed free reign to be equally good at all types of spells.

[Sphynx]

[TinkerGnome]

Don't forget that a guy who's in the middle of a firefight without a gun out (that he's firing) might as well have a neon sign on their forhead that reads:

I'm the mage, geek me first!

[Backgammon]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Cheops]

To be as effective as possible Sams, Deckers, and Riggers have to start with 1,000,000 nuyen which takes the same priorities as full magic. Plus, all three have to know way more skills than a mage--riggers need car and rotoraircraft at the bare minimum, deckers need computer, etiquette, and computer b/r at the bare minimum, and sams need a firearms skill, athletics, and stealth at the bare minimum. Even adepts are underpowered compared to mages. All a mage really needs is Sorcery, Conjuring, and a fake SIN. Anything else is a bonus.

Add to this the fact that many games I've seen played there isn't a very high Lone Star presence--even in AAA rated neighborhoods. It isn't illegal to be a mage and you can't spot one out of a crowd. Correct me if I'm wrong but Cleansing can get rid of your astral signature in seconds instead of hours, Masking makes other mages think you're mundane, and Filtering gets rid of many of the background count penalties. A mage can get a bonus to Magic, their most important stat, by spending only about 18 karma. None of the other "classes" have a single stat that can be raised and usually in fact have a ceiling for how much they can improve (Essence 6, Bio Index 9).

When I run a game sams can't walk around with their reflexes on or else they'll geek bums and children on occasion and they'll piss off anyone who doesn't qualify for Etiquette (Street). You can't walk around with a drawn pistol without sticking out like a sore thumb and pissing off Joe Sarariman so the average sam goes into combat with 7+1d6 initiative and no pistol drawn.

Mages on the other hand, don't suffer the "jumpy" penalty because it is "natural" and not "programmed." They can go around with 5+4d6 initiative all the time and wearing 6/6 armor without any penalties. The average mage can easily handle 3D drain unless they're sustaining lots of spells. Besides, if they take drain they can always take a stim patch (magic loss is no big deal with MiTS). Plus spells are a lot more effective than firearms because A) combat spells can't be dodged (except touch spells), B) they target stats that are usually weaker than body, and C) they cost next to nothing to cast and never run out.

Magic is the ultimate munchkin tactic depending on your GM. Try running a group that is all mages except for one sam and one decker. That's why I'll throw in lots of random magical encounters if the mage is getting out of hand. Ghoul packs attack him, free spirits happen to wander by, background counts, dragons, and a crazy AI implanting things in them. Bwahahaha!

[Sphynx]

Perhaps I was a bit confusing in my post Austere.

Shielding and Background are a factor in non-disposables (main villian or target type area), so unless you're dealing with the finale (so to speak), stunball will be more effective than a gun, but when push comes to shove, and the target is a bit more than a red-coat, stunball will probably fail to be as effective. Anyhows, moot point either way.

And the most dice I've seen for a stunball would be our 235 karma shaman who has a Force 5 Ally, Force 6 Power Focus, Sorcery skill of 10, and Spell Pool of 7 for 28 (though I'm sure he could squeeze a few more dice out somehow). That would definitely not qualify as 'few' since people like yourself never reach that level of karma.

Sphynx

[Siege]