 Balance Issues, SR3 & Firearms vs. Sorcery |
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 Dec 1 2003, 08:02 PM
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#26
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
Bullshit. ~J |
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Dec 1 2003, 08:03 PM
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#27
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
It is true. He did say 'as effective as possible', not 'playable', so he's quite right. The more toys you have, the more effective you can be.
Sphynx |
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Dec 1 2003, 08:05 PM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
If you're playing a game with rigid controls on cyber and weapons and none on magic, I can see why you'd think they were unbalanced.
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Dec 1 2003, 08:05 PM
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#29
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But for a streetsam, maxing out on toys to begin with is pointless because of the nonavailability of higher grades of cyberware, and if the optional surgery rules in Man and Machine are used, maxing out cyberware at chargen can downright cripple you. Same with riggers; there's a limit to what you can get that won't get supplanted in-game, and what you can get can easily fit into ¥650k.
Deckers he may be right about. Other than that, I still say no. ~J |
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Dec 1 2003, 08:24 PM
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#30
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
First up, do you honestly need more than 6 essence worth of alpha/basic to be effective? Beta and Delta, even if you get them in-game and get the huge TN and Threshold needed to implant them without problems, the difference in essence vs the cost in nuyen makes it dumb, IMHO, to get them in-game. Never ever ever go delta, even with a Wired-Reflexes 3 (5.0 as Basic, 4.0 as Alpha, 3.0 as Beta, 2.5 as Delta) the costs... (500,000 as Basic, 1,000,000 as Alpha, 3,000,000 as Beta and 12,000,000 as Delta), it's just not going to happen (unless you guys are racking in some super duper serious nuyen).
Anything less Essencewise just isn't worth it to go past Alpha. Hell, let's assume you go with something cheap and lower essence, like Titanium Lacing. Basic: 2.25, 75,000 :nuyen: Alpha: 1.80, 150,000 :nuyen: Beta: 1.35, 675,000 :nuyen: Delta: 1.125, 2,700,000 :nuyen: Definitely pointless to go Delta for that huge savings of 0.225 essence and only plauysably worth it for Beta to save that 0.45 essence. No, 1mil, char-gen resources is truly the most effective way to do it. As for Riggers, well, since they only need 1 or 2 (if you assume they need a datajack with their VCR) pieces of cyberware, then starting with more toys at char-gen is definitely ALOT more effective when you add in the fact that the same cash is earned either way so you're only adding, and street index makes it cheaper to buy at char-gen anyhows. Sphynx |
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Dec 1 2003, 09:15 PM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
I made an effective C-resources decker once. He'd spent about a year and a half pre-game hacking on the mainframe at the university he attended. His deck was entirely home-made. Applying bug rules to every component of the deck was extremely amusing... but he was a good enough programmer that his bug occurance rate was not crippling, and he had a whole mess of software that he would otherwise have had to cut Skills or Attributes (A and B, respectively) to afford. |
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Dec 1 2003, 09:24 PM
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#32
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Oh yes, you can be an effective C-resources decker. The argument, as Sphynx said, is what makes them "as effective as possible."
~J |
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Dec 1 2003, 09:40 PM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 29-November 03 Member No.: 5,861 |
So the majority of the combat that your characters engage in involves getting jumped on the street on the way to the local Stuffer Shack?
I would call alerting Lonestar that you're sporting a bunch of illegal foci a pretty big penalty. Not to mention telling every less than scrupulous person that you're carrying some powerful and expensive foci, ripe for the picking. They don't even need to be magically active, seeing as how you're glowing like a lightbulb with that Armor spell. |
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Dec 1 2003, 09:50 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Well, except for the bug issue, which really wasn't all that big a deal, his deck was as good as any starting deck, and he had higher Attributes and Skills than he would have if he'd gone A Resources, which contributed directly to his effectiveness.
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Dec 1 2003, 10:05 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
But how much cyber combat did you do?
Did you do the canon approach to programs? if you did it takes 350k+ to get enough to do real combat and actually deck. Programs are by far the worst part of the SR system. They are so far off in use, size and everything else, I dont' even wanna get started. The whole size aspect of them alone is BS let alone the cost of them and and not to mention hardware... |
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Dec 1 2003, 10:07 PM
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#36
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
So you started the game with a custom-built deck? Paying only for parts to build it, and a computer shop? And the GM let you make the rolls etc, pre-game to turn it into a deck?
Personally, I let people buy the gear, shop, etc at char-gen, but there's no way they'd get to build it pre-game and write the programs pre-game instead of paying for them. One of the ideas of resources isn't just how much you spent, but what you aquired in life. A person who spent the 1 mil on deck/program/cyber may ahve written all the programs and built the deck himself (depends on how he wrote his background), but he still pays full price because that's what he's gained in life. Sphynx |
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Dec 1 2003, 11:32 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
VCR's come with a datajack. If you want to upgrade to an induction datajack (so as not to tell the whole world you're a rigger by virtue of your mid-brain 'jack), it takes an additional 0.1 Essence and 3,000 nuyen (for regular cyber) . . . or was it 2,000? M&M is upstairs and I'm feeling lazy. I generally agree that beta- and delta- are both a waste of resources. My GM offered a cyber-warrior of mine a pass to a delta clinic as a run reward, and I said, "Thanks. Do they have regular?" On the subject of magic, many posters sound as though they play in high-powered games.* I justed started a sorcerer last weekend. All 35 points went to Detection spells. If you want to be the end-all and be-all of combat, yes, a really good combat-mage is going to cost a fortune in karma. But why? That's what sammies and adepts are for. Do deckers and riggers worry about being combat-effective? Or does the decker worry about being the end-all and be-all of information-gathering and system-manipulating while a rigger worries about being the end-all and be-all of driving, flying, repairing, and maybe gunnery? To suggest that mages are out of balance because they are better than or worse than sammies and adepts is a horribly narrow position to take. Are your groups so hard-up for firepower that the mage has to fight all the time? Note that I'm not really addressing the mage's need to be effective in astral combat or against spirits. Most of the posts seemed to be addressing physical world issues. By the way, Mr. Detection Spells does one magical thing in combat. 12 dice to Spell Defense, every turn, free action. THAT'S being combat-effective . . . (12 dice because he's brand new and hasn't earned much karma yet.) * My comments should not be taken as a flame or a slam against other's gaming styles . . . even though I prefer low-power games . . . ;) |
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Dec 1 2003, 11:41 PM
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#38
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Third edition page reference? It's my understanding that they do not, though it is not explicitly stated (there is some circumstantial evidence in R3 that they don't, as well, and the templates have them purchased seperately). |
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Dec 1 2003, 11:53 PM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
In my opinion, VCRs most definitely do not come with a Datajack included.
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Dec 2 2003, 12:02 AM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
@ Sphynx: Just out of curiosity, where are you pulling those numbers for nuyen costs from? Basic cyberware costs the book listing. Alpha-grade costs twice as much as basic. Beta-grade costs four times as much as basic. Delta-grade costs eight times as much as basic. That, at least according to my copy of M&M, is canon. I've got to wonder where you're pulling the 6x cost for beta-grade and the 24x cost for delta-grade from in your first example, and the 9x and 36x costs respectively in your second. So, um, what's up with that? |
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Dec 2 2003, 12:23 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
Okay, I stand corrected. I could swear that I saw something in R3r that said VCR's come with a datajack, but the only thing I can find now is the part where it says rigger adaptation includes a datajack port (p. 130). Damned game has too many rules . . . ;) |
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Dec 2 2003, 02:58 AM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Don't know about Sphynx's numbers, but the surgical costs for a piece of Deltaware is in the 120k range, before you add in bribes, etc.
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Dec 2 2003, 03:16 AM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
My understanding is that the VCR does not come with a datajack, but neither is a datajack required to use the VCR. As I interpret it, the VCR includes the jacks necessary to plug it into a vehicle or RCD (usually located on the rear of the skull, as opposed to the temple that's typical for datajacks), but these jacks are not general purpose datajacks and cannot be used as such... but they can be used for things that general purpose datajacks can't.
Basically, the datajack connects to the forebrain, the VCR connects to the hindbrain, and, while there's some overlap in what you can do with them (either will allow controlling drones through an RCD in Captain's Chair mode, for example), they're generally two different tools for two different jobs. You can't jump into a drone through a datajack, but you can't deck a host through a VCR. Of course, I generally figure that most anyone who has any cyber at all will have a datajack. They're cheap and useful enough that pretty much the only reason not to get one is if you're going totally cyber-free. |
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Dec 2 2003, 03:28 AM
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#44
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Again, what's your source for that? The closest quote I can find of relevance is this:
Which seems to indicate that riggers need both. |
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Dec 2 2003, 04:24 AM
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#45
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
I'm with TinkerGnome on this. I believe the Rigger needs both.
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Dec 2 2003, 04:49 AM
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#46
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Me too!
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Dec 2 2003, 08:08 AM
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#47
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
Kag, my numbers did not include Surgery, they were adding in StreetIndex since you have to wait til post char-gen to get Beta/Delta.
Sphynx |
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Dec 6 2003, 01:28 PM
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#48
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Maybe you need to remember all the other ways they toned down mages. Remember how they used to get all metamagics upon first initiation? How about spell locks? How about being able to cast just fine with a sorcery skill of 1 because the number of dice rolled was the force of the spell? I don't remember any spells, not that there weren't any but I don't recall them right now, that successes were capped by force. And remember, just because they can learn any spell, doesn't mean they know every spell. Same as firearms. |
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Dec 6 2003, 02:45 PM
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#49
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
A year and a half down-time pre game? *DROOL* Consider what a mage with enchanting/talismongering 6 could do with that: Char-gen: 6 units of raw gold (60K :nuyen:) Refining 6 units of raw gold: 3-4 days Radical circulation on 3 of the above units: 28 days Final product: 3*4 = 12 units of radical gold Radical circulation on the 2nd 3 units: 28 days Final product: 3*4 = 12 units of radical gold Final worth: 960k :nuyen: Lather, rinse, repeat 8 times or so. After 1 year the mage hands you a farlight excalibur. |
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Dec 7 2003, 02:59 AM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I want to point out that under the current rules, it is possible to specialize by spell category. This option is probably especially attractive to shamanists and elementalists.
I think requiring a separate skill for sorcery by spell category would be far too limiting, though, and does not make a lot of sense. Like someone else already pointed out, sorcery is limited by spell points, not skill. If you want variety to matter, have your mage buy specializations in a certain category after char-gen. Specializations are much cheaper than improving the entire base skill, so if you wanted, you could have someone with Sorcery: 6/Healing Spells: 12 after 57 Karma points (less if your Willpower if higher than 6). Between all of the possible sorcery and conjuring specializations, totem and hermetic modifiers, and aspected variants, there are a bewildering variety of magical specialties to choose from. Balance-wise, I think the "classes" mesh together well. Most imbalances occur when the GM restricts one without similarly restricting the other. |
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