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> Beginings, New group, rules version, and basic questions
clangedinn
post Feb 7 2008, 11:49 PM
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Lets start off by saying hello to all and man i cant beleive it took me this long to find this site.

I have been playing shadowrun since 2nd ed. (worked in a comic shop and lived gaming for many years). I ahve moved from my normal group from ohio to florida and have hooked up some fellow gamers down here. (man they are rare in a state with no snow hehe) All of these players ahve played various games in thier time from D&D to stalking the nights to champions. None have ever played Shadowrun. Now that we have a little background let me roll out with the questions or requests for advice.

My players are all new to the system, the closet most of them ahve gotten to a d6 system is the d10 system of whitewolf. Out of all four editions which would you say is the first off easiest to teach experianced gamers but inexperianced to SR? I personally am partial to 2nd ed but that is really due to it being the first ed i was introduced to and the ed i played the longest so it is the one i know the best.

Being that these are experianced players would you all advise me to start them off as small fries with some simple this is the world type adventures or attempt to take the benefit of the doubt and drop them right into a campaign?

If it is decided to play 4th ed any advice on building begining characters? should i start em off as small fries or allow them the full complement of the rules? I can run a scenario for any type of gamer.

And the alst question. I am planning on running the world more akin to 2nd ed due to my personal preference of the fear that technology places into the game and the fear fo the unknown. I kinda want a what the hell is gonna happen next feel to the whole world. So the question is would you restrict players from gaining information from modern rule/sourcebooks to assist in this.

Mind you we are all "roleplayers" so there will be alot of sessions where the guns dont even get taken out and they sit in a bar and discuss plans and role play with NPCs. We do ahve one dice chucker in the group but he tends to stay all quiet unless he can prove how cool he is, though i ahve to admit the last session of DND we managed to get him to roleplay with us so i think he is coming along nicly.

Thanks in advance and i apolgize that my first real post is a huge question lol
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Lionhearted
post Feb 7 2008, 11:53 PM
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To quote AH: "Your search-fu is weak!"
I'd suggest you search the forums for similar posts for quick and rather intricate answers
Welcome to DS
Edit: My search-fu seems weak to, or something is messed up with the search function
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 8 2008, 12:02 AM
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Let's ignore that entirely unhelpful, and rather rude welcome for the moment.

If your crew is familiar with d10, then go with 4th edition, as they're not that different It would probably be best to start out with a lower level run, and build from there. That way there's less variables for your group to have to work out with at the start. Sometimes starting with a printed adventure like On the Run, the first and only full out adventure book for 4th edition, is the best way to go. It's well written, although it does have some parts that only work if the group plays a certain way. The bonus is that it's made for new players and GMs, so it'll help you out as well, since I'm assuming you're new to 4th edition . It'll also have a nice little tie back to 2nd edition that you should enjoy, even if your players don't get it.

As for making characters, I would suggest sticking to the core book when making your first runners. Again, too many sweets at once will make for sore tummies. Much easier to introduce more material once they've got the basics down. That will also limit the tech and magic curve somewhat, and give you more neat bits of candy to toss to them along the way.

Welcome to Dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
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Lionhearted
post Feb 8 2008, 12:04 AM
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Dont know about rude, was exactly that kind of advice I got (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
and there is really helpful threads out there, which i would gladly dig up.. if i only could get search to function propely
to be a tad more helpfull, I myself got some players that is rather inexperienced with SR (only thing they know is d20's)
anyway i find the main problem adapting them from a D&D'esque kind of thinking, Things like searching the grid or car chases never crosses their minds, I found that by 'stripping' them of their roleplaying knowledge and ask them instead to take inspiration from the real world, they quickly get more creative and modern in their thinking.
Why go chat at the bar when you just can sign in to your local forum (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 8 2008, 12:10 AM
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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 7 2008, 08:04 PM) *
Dont know about rude, was exactly that kind of advice I got (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Which is exactly my point. New people getting greated with "learn to use the search" is a serious pet peeve of mine and many others, and not that helpful. If the person is new to the boards, it's pretty unlikely they're going to just dive right in and start digging. They're going to ask around and try and get some advice. Saying "go look on your own" is neither partcularly helpful, or polite. Want to demonstrate the search? Dig up a page for them and link it. Half the topics on DS have already been discussed in one form or another so "look it up" responses all the time would make for short threads.
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clangedinn
post Feb 8 2008, 12:14 AM
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n worries i didnt find it rude tis a good statement (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I jsut couldnt get the search feature to work for me (maybe something at work or the fact they are updating teh forums according the splash page etc)

I have never ran a premade adventure before so that should be intersting. I ahve ran one session in the apst with one of the groups players and some others. THe game fell apart but i know it was due to me being used to ahving a group that "got" the world. I didnt ahve to babysit or explain alot of "why you wouldnt do that" type of stuff so the game was very bogged down and of course eventually bagged due to it.

I am trying to find a way to ease these folks into the rules and world without bombarding them and expecting them to know what thier character should know and how they should act. ya dig?

I will definatly check out the starter run. Never ran one heck never really read one other then for source material.

THank you for the warm welcome both of ya. I am off to scour the node here for more good info (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

ANd yes i shoudl of went searching on my own but darn it you all spent all that time already gathering this info why not share it for us lazy slobs hehe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Lionhearted
post Feb 8 2008, 12:18 AM
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If the players are unfamiliar with the world, I'd suggest that you recommend them to read the first chapters of the sourcebook (Up til, creating a shadowrunner that is) that really gives quite some insight into the world.. Beginning of the matrix chapter is pretty good read to for a beginner, what type of players do you have really? Are they very involved in the game or just casuals in for some friday night fun?
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 8 2008, 12:22 AM
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A good movie session before hand might set the mood as well. Stuff like The Usual Suspects, Ronin, and Things to do in Denver are some favorites of mine. They give a good idea of 'yes, you can die' I think. You can also go with the classic, albeit dated Johhny Mneumonic, and also the Mission Impossible movies if you're looking for more cinematic games.

You can do a search ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) for a whole load of SR related movies on these forums that are great for inspiration.
The worst D&D -> SR player I ever had was a kid that played all of 1/4 a session. He wanted to be a psychotic teenager who used a punch dagger, and murdered his whole village, then burned it to the ground. I patted him on the head to assuage the crazy and tried to explain things. Giving them a better sense of scale, world history, and a dose of 'realism' or powerscale might help.

Edit: And I would suggest keeping hackers to NPC roles starting out to simplify things, unless someone really wants to play one.
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Cain
post Feb 8 2008, 12:29 AM
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I can't say that I recommend On The Run. It's a good resource for the GM that has a mediocre adventure added to it. If you need source material, I would instead suggest the Shadowrun Missions campaign arc. It's very good for what it does, and introduces players to Shadowrun and Denver much better than On the Run does to SR4/Seattle.
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fistandantilus4....
post Feb 8 2008, 12:31 AM
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There's also the bonus that it's free. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) On the run isn't so much intended as an intro to Seattle, as an intro into how a run works/can work, and IMO it does fine by that. As I said it does have it's failings as well, but it ain't bad for a one shot.
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Lionhearted
post Feb 8 2008, 12:34 AM
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Movies coming up:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20047
Right now it seem easier to manually browse the forums
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Dashifen
post Feb 8 2008, 12:50 AM
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QUOTE (clangedinn @ Feb 7 2008, 05:49 PM) *
My players are all new to the system, the closet most of them ahve gotten to a d6 system is the d10 system of whitewolf. Out of all four editions which would you say is the first off easiest to teach experianced gamers but inexperianced to SR? I personally am partial to 2nd ed but that is really due to it being the first ed i was introduced to and the ed i played the longest so it is the one i know the best.


I would recommend SR4 only because it's the current edition and it might, thus, be the easiest for everyone to acquire and should have the best longevity and transferability from this group out to future groups. That they're experienced games doesn't, to me, mean that they'll have a better time with this game or that game (or this edition or that edition) but should be able to fall into just about any game and system and play their characters.

QUOTE
Being that these are experianced players would you all advise me to start them off as small fries with some simple this is the world type adventures or attempt to take the benefit of the doubt and drop them right into a campaign?


I'd do both! Start out with a few "this is the world" type games which eventually produce enough plot to bring in a campaign. Most of my campaigns go that direction since I frequently have a mix of experienced and inexperienced players (with respect to SR) at my table and, seeing as how I generally run for students at the local university.

QUOTE
If it is decided to play 4th ed any advice on building begining characters? should i start em off as small fries or allow them the full complement of the rules? I can run a scenario for any type of gamer.


If you want to run a few introductory games, let everyone make their characters using only SR4. Then, if after a few games they want to try again, include the other, supplemental rulebooks (Street Magic, Augmentation, and Arsenal for now). That way everyone can learn the world with some throw away characters before they spend their time on some more long term characters. 'Course, it does mean two character generation sessions, which can take a while.

QUOTE
I am planning on running the world more akin to 2nd ed due to my personal preference of the fear that technology places into the game and the fear fo the unknown. I kinda want a what the hell is gonna happen next feel to the whole world. So the question is would you restrict players from gaining information from modern rule/sourcebooks to assist in this.


That's up to you. If your players are strong enough that they can keep metagame information away from the table, then they shouldn't have a problem. The rulebooks are all pretty free of plot related information, so they can probably use and read SR4, Street Magic, Augmentation, and Arsenal without too many problems. The other books that are out for SR4 do have some plot related stuff, especially Emergence. It's not been a big problem for me, but if you're going to play of the fear of technology, the Emergence details with respect to Technomancers might make for some good inspiration.

Welcome aboad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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clangedinn
post Feb 8 2008, 01:23 AM
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Wow that is all great info!!!!! thank you all

I will be restricint deckers due to another post i placed up and am to lazy to link right now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Never thought of a movie session!! *runs off to do some movie searches*

wow great info thanks all of you. this si the first forum i ahve ever hit that folks were so polite to begin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now to jsut build up the anger lol

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Fortune
post Feb 8 2008, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 8 2008, 11:04 AM) *
Dont know about rude, was exactly that kind of advice I got

And it was rude then too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't like 'use the Search' answers, as they aren't always helpful when you don't quite know what to search for, or how. There is no quota on threads, so it doesn't hurt to discuss the same, or similar topics over and over again. Each time, you have a chance to get something new and unexpected out of the discussion, instead of merely referring a person to an already hashed-out debate.
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tisoz
post Feb 8 2008, 07:17 AM
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QUOTE (clangedinn @ Feb 7 2008, 06:49 PM) *
Lets start off by saying hello to all and man i cant beleive it took me this long to find this site.

Hey, welcome home. I felt the same way seven years ago. Now spread the word.

QUOTE (clangedinn @ Feb 7 2008, 06:49 PM) *
I have been playing shadowrun since 2nd ed. (worked in a comic shop and lived gaming for many years). I have moved from my normal group from Ohio to Florida and have hooked up some fellow gamers down here. (man they are rare in a state with no snow hehe) All of these players have played various games in their time from D&D to stalking the nights to champions. None have ever played Shadowrun. Now that we have a little background let me roll out with the questions or requests for advice.

My players are all new to the system, the close[s]t most of them have gotten to a d6 system is the d10 system of whitewolf. Out of all four editions which would you say is the first off easiest to teach experianced gamers but inexperianced to SR? I personally am partial to 2nd ed but that is really due to it being the first ed i was introduced to and the ed i played the longest so it is the one i know the best.

Prior to SR4, new members to our SR group had a tendency to use the Skill + Attribute method for creating a dice pool. This mechanic looks like it is familiar to your group. I know I like dice pools, but explaining them to new players was sometimes problematic. As others noted, SR4 is the current edition, so it may influence your choice. Prior editions though mean not having to invest in any more new books, so if you have a nice collection for what you want to run go with it.

I think you should discuss what features you like and dislike between the editions with your potential group and see if they think the same way. I know a ton of people who like the Grounding rules from SR2. If they sound neat to the players, they will want to go that route. Ditto the way dice pools are formed between SR4 and prior editions, or TNs. Some people like the fixed TN, some hate it.

QUOTE (clangedinn @ Feb 7 2008, 06:49 PM) *
If it is decided to play 4th ed any advice on building beginning characters? should i start em off as small fries or allow them the full complement of the rules? I can run a scenario for any type of gamer.

I would plan at least one night building characters with the group. Let them diversify their skills and focus a bit so they have a functional team. I have heard people argue that this seems unnatural, as it would not happen in RL (people covering each others weaknesses and each bringing a strength to the table), but I would disagree in that you are immediately acting like a fixer somewhat in putting together a balanced team for hire.

Other than that, it depends on what kind of game you and the players want to play. I favor full complement of rules and gear just because if I bought a book that the stuff appeared in, I want to get my moneys worth.

But first things first - you must properly initiate them in Food Fight. Any SR player who did not have this be their first experience with the game should feel like they got hosed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

QUOTE (clangedinn @ Feb 7 2008, 06:49 PM) *
And the last question. I am planning on running the world more akin to 2nd ed due to my personal preference of the fear that technology places into the game and the fear fo the unknown. I kinda want a what the hell is gonna happen next feel to the whole world. So the question is would you restrict players from gaining information from modern rule/sourcebooks to assist in this.

Thanks in advance and i apolgize that my first real post is a huge question lol

Then by all means tell them to save their money and also not read the sourcebooks. This even goes to having to edit the history given in the SR4 main book, as it lists quite a few things that you might want to spring on them.

Asking questions we can answer makes us feel needed.

QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 7 2008, 07:18 PM) *
If the players are unfamiliar with the world, I'd suggest that you recommend them to read the first chapters of the sourcebook (Up til, creating a shadowrunner that is) that really gives quite some insight into the world.. Beginning of the matrix chapter is pretty good read to for a beginner, what type of players do you have really?

I agree, but instead of having them read it, you will want to edit it to omit things you plan on introducing (If I understood what you were getting at in your original post.) You may want to type up an edited version for them to read.

QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Feb 7 2008, 07:22 PM) *
A good movie session before hand might set the mood as well. Stuff like The Usual Suspects, Ronin, and Things to do in Denver are some favorites of mine. They give a good idea of 'yes, you can die' I think. You can also go with the classic, albeit dated Johhny Mneumonic, and also the Mission Impossible movies if you're looking for more cinematic games.

The nice thing about movies is in trying to show what kind of game you want to run and how the movie relates to your vision of the SR world. It also lets the players express what kind of game they would like to play without actually knowing anything about the SR universe. Do they want to play a group of criminals like Heat, or a band of do gooders like the first Star Wars trilogy? Do they want Mission Impossible or Boondock Saints planning, technology and runs?

QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 7 2008, 07:29 PM) *
I can't say that I recommend On The Run. It's a good resource for the GM that has a mediocre adventure added to it. If you need source material, I would instead suggest the Shadowrun Missions campaign arc. It's very good for what it does, and introduces players to Shadowrun and Denver much better than On the Run does to SR4/Seattle.

I agree. I would run Food Fight, then start into the SR Missions and weave your campaign throughout it. The only caveate is SR Missions is post-Ghostwalker. I have not lookd at all the missions to see how this impinges, but the few that I have run could have as easily been pre-Ghostwalker.
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