[X] My Assistant

[Slymoon]

3rd shot:

Called shot in SR3 was +4TN and you either raised the damage by 1 level or bypassed armor.

Called shot SR4 have several options, including the avoiding armor.
Though I understand the mechanic, 8 armor = -8 to bypass, 6 armor = -6 to bypass and understand the reason why it is done this way;
1 mechanic = + or - die pool. (vs. SR1,2,3 s 2 mechanic ; + combat pool and + or - TN)
If one were to reduce the penalties then it is a clear advantage to always Call shot.

So!

Based on what I have read largely old (2005) threads, and some sample math problems. It seems there is no real reason to attempt to bypass armor except in three situations:

1. Hardened armor (didn't see any of this yet, still absorbing the BBB (and mine is black since its a limited Ed))
2. Wanting for some odd reason for that troll with massive armor to stack physical damage instead of the (typically lower) mental track.
3. You want the target to have an easier time of dodging.

So , I suppose the question is:
Is that correct, no reason to bypass soft armors?

[Fortune]

Inappropriate ammunition, for example flechette rounds loaded in your weapon.

[nathanross]

No reason to bypass any armor. Its better to Long/Full Burst (With good recoil comp) +Called Shot than to remove the opponents armor. -2AP is NOT as good as +2DV. AP is nice, but 2 instant hits on your side as opposed to the possibility of 2 MAX hits on the opponents roll is just better. Dont let the book fool you.

As for Flechette ammunition, any GM that lets you make a called shot to bypass armor with one is a fool. Flechette rounds to not break on impact, they leave the barrel in separate pieces. While you might be able to aim the center of the spread at a certain place (aka, the face), there is no way on hell you to aim it at a narrow break in the armor, especially at range. Flechette even with +5AP is not bad, it is still statistically better than regular ammo. And especially nice on unarmored targets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Fortune]

The AVS has been described in the past as using a single, large sliver (or flechette), as opposed to many tiny shards.

[jago668]

Aye, just the book describes the flechette ammo as a bundle of tiny metallic slivers. Which is why shotguns firing "shot" ammo use flechette rules also. Now if someone was designing actual flechette ammo for a pistol, or rifle type of firearm it would be more like APDS rounds. If I recall correctly has been/is being messed with in the real world.

[Fortune]

Well, technically ...

Ares Viper Slivergun: The Slivergun is a sleek weapon with burst fire capabilities and built-in sound suppression. It fires metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition.

The AVS doesn't actually fire flechette rounds. It fires metal slivers (in a less descriptive manner than previous editions) that use the flechette round rules. Nitpicky, I know, but think about it for a moment ... the AVS is a heavy pistol, fed by 30 round clip. It really doesn't seem feasible to have shotgun-like fragmenting flechette rounds, but 30 single slivers in a clip (or the cyberpunk variant with a plastic disk that spins and the ammo gets shaved off) is a lot more imaginable, at least in my opinion.

[nathanross]

Well, technically ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 307)
Ares Viper Slivergun: The Slivergun is a sleek weapon with burst fire capabilities and built-in sound suppression. It fires metal slivers that count as flechette ammunition.


The AVS doesn't actually fire flechette rounds. It fires metal slivers (in a less descriptive manner than previous editions) that use the flechette round rules. Nitpicky, I know, but think about it for a moment ... the AVS is a heavy pistol, fed by 30 round clip. It really doesn't seem feasible to have shotgun-like fragmenting flechette rounds, but 30 single slivers in a clip (or the cyberpunk variant with a plastic disk that spins and the ammo gets shaved off) is a lot more imaginable, at least in my opinion.

What youre getting hung up on is the part "It fires metal slivers". Now, this is ambiguous, since there is still the question, by sliver's', is it referring to more than one being fired at the same time? Or is it refering to a general quantity that it fires one at a time.

Of course, this only matters in your head, since the fact that it "counts" as flechette ammo means effectively that is IS flechette ammo. Meaning that whatever is, be it glass, metal, ceramics, hell, jello for all I care, it is being fired in multiple pieces. Otherwise it would not be using the rules +2DV, +5AP. The reason flechette ammo gives a bonus to armor is due to the lack of mass of each individual pellet or flechette. Because they are so small, they lack penetration. This is not an issue usually when dealing with human flesh as it is very soft and easily penetrated. If you had one giant sliver, ignoring the strange aerodynamic properties it might possess, since it is being accelerated enough to achieve the same range as any other bullet, it is also safe to say that it would have the same penetrating power.

The Ares Viper Slivergun shoots pellets.

[Fortune]

Of course, this only matters in your head, since the fact that it "counts" as flechette ammo means effectively that is IS flechette ammo.

If you say so.

[Ryu]

As for Flechette ammunition, any GM that lets you make a called shot to bypass armor with one is a fool

I am one such fool. If a player knowingly wants to use a mechanically inferiour way to do something, I let him. The attempt to bypass armor with ammo that gurantees an effective armor rating of 5+ is even less sensible than the same attempt using normal ammo.

With armor degradation (Arsenal) you might want to bypass armor in order to capture a SecGuard Uniform intact (Ironically because you are able to penetrate the armor).

[nathanross]

With armor degradation (Arsenal) you might want to bypass armor in order to capture a SecGuard Uniform intact (Ironically because you are able to penetrate the armor).

Then use a different gun. You try hitting the center of a target with a shotgun (not using a slug) and tell me how it works out. There is a reason you can also buy slugs. If you are really trying to save the uniform, you would use something that is accurate, or try and sneak up on him, not fire at him with something that will tear him and his uniform apart.

[Kyoto Kid]

...Sitck & Shock, or Narcojet from an Ares Super Squirt (I'm about to group this weapon with pistols skill like it was in 3rd ed so it's more useful since they neglected to include dart pistols/rifles)

[nathanross]

...Sitck & Shock, or Narcojet from an Ares Super Squirt (I'm about to group this weapon with pistols skill like it was in 3rd ed so it's more useful since they neglected to include dart pistols/rifles)

Yeah, those were the days. Dart guns are the staple of non-lethal runners. Since the developers seemed to forget them, I think it's time we took it into our own hands:

Dart Pistol, Damage (as Chemical), No AP (maybe even +AP), SS/SA (GM decision), 5©, Availability 6, 200 nuyen

Darts (pack of 10), Resisted with Balistic or Impact (whichever is higher), Availability 6, 40nuyen

[nathanross]

DELETE (Double Post)

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

well, now stick-and-shock are the staple of non-lethal runners. And as a bonus, their rules don't completely break the called shot system like dartguns did in 3rd (i.e. the +1 damage level, or bypass ALL armor ruling.)