AP and the armorless, The new forum search doesn't like me Options

[GoldenAri]

I'm sure this has been asked before but I can't get the search function to do anything right.

Does AP apply if you have no armor?
Say your body 6 without armor and shot by an APDS round, do you only resist with 2 dice?
If hit with flechette do you resist with 6 dice or 11?
What if the AP exceeds your armor - Say a Barret loaded with APDS?

This post has been edited by Redjack: Feb 8 2008, 11:18 PM

Reason for edit: Flagged as an SR4 topic

[Malicant]

No armor, no armor modifiers. APDS is a waste on unarmored targets, while flechett really starts to have a good time. Sort of.

[Nightwalker450]

If you don't have armor AP does not apply.

Trolls have a nice bonus of always having armor so they will always resist a flechete with the +5 AP
others will have +0 AP bonus

[GoldenAri]

Wow, that's a good point. Always worth getting a single point of internal armor then, just to take advantage of positive APs.

[Moon-Hawk]

Personally, I dislike that an unarmored person gets no armor to resist flechette, but if they put on shin guards for +1 armor, suddenly they get 6 (1 for armor +5 AP from flechette) The weakest of weak armor clothing gives you the full protection of flechette's crappy AP. As a house-rule, I limit positive AP modifiers to, at most, doubling the existing armor value. So if someone has 2 points of armor, and someone shoots them with flechette, I count them as having 4 points of armor, not 7.
It really only comes up with flechette ammo, but it keeps it from completely sucking.

[Malicant]

Personally, I dislike that an unarmored person gets no armor to resist flechette...

Most people dislike beeing shredded to pieces but it still happens now and then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Nightwalker450]

I like the house rule of AP no more then doubling armor. It makes sense and make shotguns viable troll repellant.

[Moon-Hawk]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I just don't think a leather jacket should completely thwart the benefits of flechette. If used as-is, unless you're sure to be fighting naked people it's a worthless ammo.

[Nightwalker450]

Does negating armor remove positive AP modifiers from flechette? You precisely shoot that small exposed area, and suddenly the choke on your shotgun vanishes?

"Normally this spread would deal little damage to someone in armor, but the trick is aim for his nose. There's a hole there, and you can hit it. No not the eyes, protective covers make it even worse!"

[Fortune]

Does negating armor remove positive AP modifiers from flechette? You precisely shoot that small exposed area, and suddenly the choke on your shotgun vanishes?

Technically, yes.

[jago668]

I wish they had not borked flechette ammo completely. The +5 is a bit extreme, if they wanted it increased from +2DV +2AP, they should have just pushed to +3AP at first.

[Redjack]

I like to think of it as more a balanced translation of the rule:
Just as you cannot have more negative modifiers to AP than you actually have armor, neither can you have positive modifiers.

Example:
With 1 point of ballistic armor, -2 AP only negates the one point for 0 armor (not -1 armor).
With 1 point of ballistic armor, +5 AP only afters the one point for a total 2 AP (not +6 armor).

Edit: As noted Fletchette uses impact, but the thought is the same.

[Teulisch]

it is odd how sharply the newest errata nerfs all ammo types. gel is weaker, flechettes are weaker, both types of explosive ammo are weaker... there dosent seem to be any reason why they did it either. anyone know the logic behind the change?

[Mäx]

Fletchette ammo goes against impact armor that is usually smaller then the ballistic to begin with and statictally you need 6 dice to negate that +2 to DV so i don't see how flechette ammo got totally borked.

[jago668]

Well considering that the ammo basically gives you those 6 extra die to resist with. You are basically shooting the same as regular for five times the cost. Just doesn't really seem worth loading it. I would rather spend half what flechette gives for explosive ammo.

[FriendoftheDork]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I just don't think a leather jacket should completely thwart the benefits of flechette. If used as-is, unless you're sure to be fighting naked people it's a worthless ammo.

Aye, I use the rule as well, to only allow up to double original armor from AP mods.

[Fortune]

it is odd how sharply the newest errata nerfs all ammo types. gel is weaker, flechettes are weaker, both types of explosive ammo are weaker... there dosent seem to be any reason why they did it either. anyone know the logic behind the change?

To make APDS actually worthwile. Previously, it was the sub-par ammo choice, even though it had a high Availability. Now, it is the premium ammunition.

[Red]

Pre-nerf flechette used to be the ultimate ammo. And on average, flechette is still a mathematically superior ammo to many rounds. Even when impact armor is equal to ballistic, it still has the advantage compared to regular ammo. Only when edge comes into play does flechette start to lose its luster against baseline ammo. Unless the target is immune to stun, or they have some kind of hardened armor, the bonus dice don't really mean much.

[Whipstitch]

Agreed; Ex-Ex used to absolutely destroy APDS in a head on comparison while flechette ammo's +2 AP modifier was largely a moot point since impact armor usually clocks in as two points lower than ballistic anyway. All other things being equal, a DV bonus from ammunition is better than a AP bonus since unlike burstfire it is allowed to be added in when comparing damage code vs. armor for the purposes of determining whether an attack deals physical or stun. Heck, as it stands now APDS isn't that much better than Ex-Ex; APDS isn't so glitch happy and is your best choice against the various forms of hardened armor (other than stick & shock, which is readily nerfed by non-conductive and really only good against spirits) but against anything else they'll deal roughly equal amounts of damage with Ex-Ex pulling ahead against any unarmored opponents. In all honesty, my initial reaction to the eratta was "Ah, I had been wondering when they'd get around to that."

[Kyoto Kid]

...I was actually partial to Gel Rounds before the Errata, especially when loaded into a Super Warhawk. 8 DV +2 AP and a very good chance to bowl your opponent over even with only one net hit.

Fortune is right regarding the change to EXEX. APDS really wasn't worth all the cost and trouble when EXEX was effectively just as if not more lethal. With APDS an armoured target loses 4 soak dice which equals one hit on average. With the old version of EXEX the target effectively loses 8 dice (6 needed to resist the additional 2 DV and the -2 AP from the ammo) for EXEX.

Furthermore EXEX had a better effect against unarmoured targets as it still conveyed the +2 AP bonus. You would have a pretty decent chance to take an unarmoured opponent (except a Troll) down or at least put him in a whole world of hurt in one shot using a Warhawk loaded with EXEX.

...does that make sense? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

[Cain]

Even the new version is very powerful. Any increase to the DV turns into a need for +3 soak dice to even it out.

[Whipstitch]

Yep, imo, APDS is really only all that great if you're shooting at things that flat out ignore Stun damage like drones or vehicles. If you don't absolutely have to start dealing physical, it's basically a wash when compared to Ex-Ex. That's a big enough issue though that I'm willing to take APDS over Ex-Ex with pistol grade weapons unless I'm rocking a pretty hefty dicepool.

[Cain]

And in many of those cases, AV is an even better choice.

[ixombie]

In the original ammo rules, ammo types were no-brainers. APDS takes away 4 armor from the target, which essentially takes away 1.33 hits from the enemy's damage resistance. ExEx, on the other hand, did +2 DV -2 AP - the enemy would need an extra 6 dice to resist the additional +2 damage, and loses 2, so it's like stripping away 8 dice, twice as good as what APDS did. And Flechette was equivalent to APDS insanely enough - adding +2 DV makes the enemy need another 6 dice to resist the extra damage, and by giving them a +2 bonus, you're basically taking away 4 dice just like APDS. Nobody would ever need APDS ever, mathematically... Now that they fixed them, you have actual choices. Flechette is almost a wash - +2 DV takes 6 of the enemy's dice, and +5 AP gives them back 5, so they're just losing 1... ExEx with +1 DV -1 AP is taking away 3 of the enemy's dice. And APDS (against armored targets) retakes its rightful place as rare, expensive ammo that isn't pointless.

Anyway, I'm usually against house rules, but this one makes good sense. Limit +AP to double the target's armor, and limit -AP to the amount of armor they have. Good stuff.

[Cain]

I don't have Arsenal handy, but AV rounds essentially make APDS rounds obsolete again. They only cost somewhat more, and they're only 2 points higher in Availability. Without Street Index or another balancing factor, there's no reason to not buy AV rounds instead of APDS.