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> APDSesque Arrows?
jago668
post Feb 9 2008, 03:10 AM
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Anyone have any thoughts on armor penetrating type of arrows? Now I know you couldn't have a true APDS arrow, just curious about working up something that punches through armor a little better than normal. Though making them use impact armor would suit me just fine. Since for example kevlar is not nearly as effective against an arrow as a bullet.

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions?
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ixombie
post Feb 9 2008, 04:16 AM
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The armor piercing quality of arrows comes primarily from their sharpness. The question is how you'd get arrows sharper than the razor sharp broadheads you'd normally use. It wouldn't be as simple as just using a harder metal, I don't think that would be a significant enough difference to modify the AP. You'd need something extreme, like monofilament edged heads. Or dikoted, if it still existed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

You could, of course, just make up whatever bogus thing you want. It is science fiction, after all. Like maybe you have some arrows with diamond tipped drill bits and batteries inside them, and they spin super fast when you shoot them and drill into the target (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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TonkaTuff
post Feb 9 2008, 04:52 AM
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Don't arrows and other projectile-type weapons already go against Impact armor? If so, the only way to feasibly increase AP would be to apply more force and/or make the projectile material stronger than the plate (or point-hardening gel or whatever) it's hitting. The arrowheads are already plenty sharp enough - that's why kevlar and other anti-ballistic technologies don't do much to stop them in the first place.
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jago668
post Feb 9 2008, 05:09 AM
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Nope they use ballistic. (page 300 sidebar under armor) EDIT (it specifically states bows/crossbows, I dunno about knives and other thrown type weapons)

That is why I was asking what people thought about a more expensive arrow that would apply like a -1AP or -2AP, or make them use impact. A lead bullet against something specifically designed to stop bullets gets a -1AP for some weapons. So I was just thinking, normal day (right now) kevlar type vests don't fare so well against pointy objects (knives, arrows, etc). You have to add stuff to them to get protection for that. So got me to thinking about shadowrun, seems that someone would have made arrows designed for getting through armor better or switch the rules to make them work against impact armor showing that normal ballistic armor would do worse against them.

It isn't so much the sharpness as it is the pointyness (?) of them. At least to my understanding of it. It puts the force into a much smaller spot so it is harder to diffuse that force out.

Just my rambling thoughts on the matter. Bows work, just looking for something that would help against some of the more hardened targets.

and yeah I wish that dikote had been in Arsenal
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Starmage21
post Feb 9 2008, 05:21 AM
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QUOTE (jago668 @ Feb 9 2008, 12:09 AM) *
Nope they use ballistic. (page 300 sidebar under armor) EDIT (it specifically states bows/crossbows, I dunno about knives and other thrown type weapons)

That is why I was asking what people thought about a more expensive arrow that would apply like a -1AP or -2AP, or make them use impact. A lead bullet against something specifically designed to stop bullets gets a -1AP for some weapons. So I was just thinking, normal day (right now) kevlar type vests don't fare so well against pointy objects (knives, arrows, etc). You have to add stuff to them to get protection for that. So got me to thinking about shadowrun, seems that someone would have made arrows designed for getting through armor better or switch the rules to make them work against impact armor showing that normal ballistic armor would do worse against them.

It isn't so much the sharpness as it is the pointyness (?) of them. At least to my understanding of it. It puts the force into a much smaller spot so it is harder to diffuse that force out.

Just my rambling thoughts on the matter. Bows work, just looking for something that would help against some of the more hardened targets.

and yeah I wish that dikote had been in Arsenal


Thats because arrows have more penetrating power than a bullet does. Consider when a bullet is stopped by kevlar, the same effect happens to an arrow moving much slower, but the rear end of the arrow is still moving at full speed, pushing the arrow through the vest.
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jago668
post Feb 9 2008, 05:39 AM
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QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Feb 9 2008, 01:21 AM) *
Thats because arrows have more penetrating power than a bullet does. Consider when a bullet is stopped by kevlar, the same effect happens to an arrow moving much slower, but the rear end of the arrow is still moving at full speed, pushing the arrow through the vest.



It still has to do with the point though. If you took a arrow and made a tip for it shaped like a bullet it woudln't penetrate the vest. Now it may be a combination of the two, but without that point you aren't going to get the penetration. It also has to do with an arrowhead being harder and thus less likely to deform and pancake out on a vest. Which is why the teflon coated bullets were resistant to some vests. (They were brass or bronze, cannot remember which, coated with teflon to keep them from wearing down barrels.)
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TonkaTuff
post Feb 9 2008, 06:02 AM
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Ah. I was looking all over the sections directly dealing with projectiles for the reference to which armor they went against and, not finding it, figured it was Impact like it always had before. Which is probably why no one had devoted time to developing an anti-armor arrow before (with the lower average rating, it wasn't particularly necessary). But, yeah, now that ballistic armor is pulling double-duty, I can see why you'd want a +AP option. Of course, the easiest route would be to just put them all back against Impact armor, as nature intended. It'd be a minor boost for crossbows. And standard bows have always had the 'I've got enough Str to shoot through a tank' potential, so an average of two fewer points of armor against them probably won't break 4th ed any more than it did 1st, 2nd, or 3rd.
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Whipstitch
post Feb 9 2008, 06:22 AM
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Yeah, it never hurts to dig the hole any deeper!

...Wait, what?

Honestly, there's already explosive arrows that are roughly the equivalent of the ammo of the same designation. They don't add to AP, but they do add to DV, which is like the same thing, only better. Some sort of APDS equivalent would be great for truck hunting or wasting Spirits, but considering what bows are already capable of on the top end of the power scale I don't really think they need any more buffing. After all, 5 strength, a matching bow and explosive arrows compares favorably to sport rifles as it is, and a character capable of Quick Draw can fire it twice a round, so you start quickly getting into "I start play with a near-silent semi-auto Panther Cannon!" territory even without making it even easier to bypass hardened armor.
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