Dealing with Awakened youngsters, It's a good thing that Anthony sent him to the cornfield Options

[hyzmarca]

You know, most Sixth World parents look upon the possibility of having a magically active child as a wondrous thing. The kid is almost guaranteed any lifestyle he wants, scholarships abound, the sky's the limit. Such a child is a perfect meal ticket.

But, really, is it going to be like that at all? There is a huge downside that most people overlook. I imagine that some of the parents here have had that experience where a child, determined to get his or her way, throws a temper tantrum and if that doesn't work goes all passive-aggressive. Now imagine that that same child who he crying and screaming and possibly even hitting because you won't but that $80 toy that he'll play with for five minutes and then forget about can kill you with his mind.

Just think about this for a moment. Your kid, whose grasp of morality does not extend beyond "I want it" and who thinks that a week is a very long time has the power to kill you with his mind. And if that isn't enough he can summon ephemeral creatures from beyond to enforce his will. Is he getting that overpriced toy right now? Damned right he is. Will he be spanked if he doesn't calm down and straighten up? Of course not. You'll be spanked - by an Earth Spirit. It doesn't matter if the kid is just learning though trial and error because once your child gets a single skill point in conjuring you're totally fucked. You no longer have any authority as parents. Sure, you can say that he can't have ice cream for breakfast but he can retort that the angry flaming man he just summoned up disagrees. He wins. It's just that simple. Unless you're rich enough to hire an ass-kicking magical nanny who is a cross between Marry Poppins and the T-800 John Constantine (or, alternately, between Maria von Trap and Elric of Melniboné ) there is nothing that you can do to stop him short of killing him or sending him to prison. He wins.

But wait, you say, magical talent manifests at puberty. I say yes, it usually does. I'd imagine that it might be able to manifest earlier in some cases, but that would be extremely rare. I'd also point out that the lower age limit for when puberty can start is somewhere slightly below 0. Cases of sexually mature 2-year-olds are rare, but t does happen. I'd hope that none of the parents on this forum have has to experience the compound problems of adolescent rebellion and The Terrible Twos at the same time, imagine if they occurred simultaneously and were accompanied by the ability to kill things with one's mind. That isn't good. That is not good at all.

But it isn't just the freakishly early maturation that leads to promiscuous preschool prestidigitators which one has to worry about. Nay. One also must consider the consequences of having a teenage magician in the family. Imagine, if you will, your young teenage child comes home from the expensive corporate boarding school to which he or she has received a scholarship. After the obligatory exchange of pleasant hellos your child asks for some money to buy illegal recreational drugs. You are shocked, so shocked that you can speak for a moment. You're about to say "hell no" but then you start to think about it more and realize that teenagers need to experiment with this sort of stuff and if you don't support him he'll just do it behind your back. Glad that you didn't fly off the handle and damage your relationship with your child, you happily hand over the money and give some advice about which drugs to take. Congratulations, you are the proud parent of a child received an A+ in Mental Manipulation 304 (which, being an honors class, is worth 5 grade points).

When he wrecks your car, you are very angry at first, but when you see him you're just glad that he's safe. You couldn't be angry at him for stealing and wrecking your vehicle after he almost died in a horrible accident (which wasn't really life-threatening at all). You're totally fucked, chummer. You aren't as totally fucked as you would be if your three-year-old's Teddy Bear shot lightening bolts at you every time you hesitated to comply with the toddler's demands, but you are totally fucked. You're child controls you completely and you don't know it. Even if you did know it you wouldn't care because he can control your emotions about the subject. It is, once again, a total inversion of parental authority. If you don't want to just kill or imprison your kid, the only may to have any control over the magically active youngster is with a more powerful magician. Any mundane who is not rich is screwed in this kind of situation.

[Stahlseele]

i was wondering about that myself from time to time . . evr since i saw that episode of the dinos where baby sinclair gets sick and goes all demon possessed like in the excorzist . . or was that some other episode dealing with the terrible twos? @.@

[Malicant]

tl;dr

Nah, I'm kidding.

Just because awakening happens around puberty, doesn't meen it's tied to it. See latent awakening. I rather think it happens when the person's mind develops to a certain degree so he can conciously access the astral plain and start to harness it with the help of some paradigm. So if it really happens to someone really freakish young it's rather abnormal and I don't expect such a kid to survive long since it will toast all around it and himself if it is not stopped by an angry mob or law enforcement.

There is such a thing as magical threats and SR is a paranoid place. Some people are aware and watching, so the situation you describe will most likely not get out of hand. It has good chances to end in a laboratory though. The wizheads always want to know why someone awakens and having subjects that so blatantly ignore the usual rules must be interesting.

[Snow_Fox]

also spells need to be taught. maybe a proto shaman could summon a spirit but without control the spirit would probably sod off or even look after the kid. A prootmage couldn't summon an elemental without the ritual tools

[hyzmarca]

Spells must be learned. A young magician can learn spell design through trial and error and use it to successfully create a functional spell formula which can then be learned. In SR4, the only real limitation is that the kid must go on some sort of adventure between learning Arcana and learning the spell. The conjuring issue also does not exist in SR4, a child who learns summoning through trial and error will be able to do so no matter what his tradition is.

[Malicant]

I'm not sure a kid can learn something you go to collage for by itself.

[hyzmarca]

I'm not sure a kid can learn something you go to collage for by itself.

Of course he can. I mean, kids learn to walk by themselves. Compared to that, college is kid's stuff (so to speak). What takes an adult years of intense training to learn a baby can learn in a relatively short time. The only reason we need primary school is to lay the knowledge base that serves as the foundation for everything later.


But given the flexibility of traditions it is very likely that a young awakened kid would just instinctually develop his own as he practices and for such an invented tradition this crappy drawing of a head exploding in a shower of blood should be a sufficient formula for an effective powerbolt or slay person.

[nathanross]

This is truly a great topic!

While there are many different cases and ways for these things to happen, I can see in some rare situations a child who is very powerful, very intelligent, and who awakens early terrorizing and ruling his parents. I can also see some crazy shit like the kid killing his parents and getting spirits to posses them and act like the parents he needs. Total run material there.

I believe for problem magic children, the corps would definitely provide boarding schools and such. Who would ever pass up that talent? Special children need discipline that only certain adults can give. If they feel like they are superior too soon, they get arrogant. I can see some very good mages being put in charge of the kids. Of course, there are always those that slip through the cracks, but for slum kids, things are different, and I leave it up to everyones individual imagination as to what happens there.

[Rasumichin]

As far as the necessary training is concerned, one should not generalize the fact that many magical traditions have turned into universitarian disciplines.
Forming the potential has to start much earlier.

Just think of all the wizzer gangs, the people who are taught in their tradition by a grumpy old neighborhood mage, the tribe's medicine man or their santera grandmother.
Studying magic at college merely expands on your potential.
Given the extreme amount of skill points a full-fledged, well-rounded caster needs, 10-15 years of overall training sound reasonable, but it might very well be possible that a talented teenager is able to summon a force 3 spirit (powerful enough to be life-threatening for Joe Blow on the street), even if she doesn't know a damn about high-brow stuff like arcana, binding or ritual magic.

There are also -rare- cases where awakened receive their knowledge from their mentor spirit.
Depending on the spirit, this can make the abovementioned situations much, much worse, of course.

This aproach would also explain how a kid manages to learn mindbending spells that should be flat-out illegal in most jurisdictions...even though in Henan, this stuff might be taught at school...

[Fortune]

I'm not sure a kid can learn something you go to collage for by itself.

Not every person capable of spellcasting, summoning, or even arcana use in the Sixth World attended college.

[Malicant]

Of course he can. I mean, kids learn to walk by themselves. Compared to that, college is kid's stuff (so to speak).

That's actually a crappy comparison. Arcana is in line with nuclear physics, and I don't know how many households disappear in a nuclear blast in your neighbourhood, but here where I live that only happens like never.

Oh, and the only creature known in SR to learn magic like we learn walking is the dragon. Even drakes need paradigms.

So, while any idiot can be thaught magic, only a few really smart/devoted people learn and develop new stuff. That kid that learns all by himself without any knowledge of magic, paradigms, spells, metamagics etc, would have to be some seriuos magical genius. And it sure as hell would not be metahuman.

The kid would be a wild talent with random spontaneous manifestations in high stress situations at best.

Not every person capable of spellcasting, summoning, or even arcana use in the Sixth World attended college.

That's right. But those who develop new stuff without assitence from people who already know how to do it most likely did attend college (i.e. higher education of some kind, form, color or flavor).

[Fortune]

I wonder how all those aberrant awakened traditions all manage to exist then. You know? The ones with Toaster or Elvis for a Mentor, or even Psionicists.

[Malicant]

First, they are called abbarant with a reason. Second, most of those people are loones, and loones don't follow the rules. Third psionics is a paradigm that has been pretty much worked out even before awakening. Elvis, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Fortune]

So, let me get this straight.

First you argue that it would not be possible for anyone to learn Arcana without College (later changed to 'higher education').

Then you concede that aberrant traditions do in fact exist, and that little Peter Poptart could in fact manifest his power as an aspect of Toaster, and therefore develop Arcana all by himself.

So, what is your argument again?

[Sir_Psycho]

I made a shaman once. She was a scary bitch. Not because she had mind-frying combat spells. Not because she was a homicidal maniac. She was a young pantheist witch , torn between three very similar idols. The Lover, Seductress, and Siren. Basically she had a magically induced schizofrenia. At the best of times, she was the Lover, beautiful and vain, taking her vengeance on those who reject her, she is irrational and jealous with lovers, and inspires the same in men. And with a +2 dice to control manipulation spells, she could really make a man obsessive and jealous. Completely enraptured. And her only "disadvantage" was a minimum charisma of six. Then, according to perhaps a cycle of the moon, a mana surge etc. her Idol would change to the Seductress. Fairly similar, but far more wild and indulgent, with difficult willpower tests to be made any time an indulgence would appear. Narcotics, BTL's, alcohol, sex, whatever. "She avoids confrontation but gains pleasure when others fight for her attention or on her behalf. She exists to exploit weaknesses and will not hesitate to sacrifice those who get in her way" So basically, the lover is a bit of a loose cannon in relationships, but who isn't. The seductress is a scary, magical powered manipulative bitch. Then she becomes the Siren. She enraptures anyone she chooses and then uses all the means at her disposal to manipulate them to destroy themselves.

This particular girl had such (SR3) characteristics as the vindictive flaw, 7 charisma, high social skills, and even the psychology complementary knowledge skill. As if she needed it, with such spells as Physical Mask (Why be yourself today?), Foreboding, Confusion, Mass Confusion, Control Emotion (Force 6 with 8 Dice on that one), Influence, Mind Probe, and when she really doesn't get her way... Agony.

She has many of those teenager characteristics you suggested, but in a nasty magician/face character. It was really fun creating the conflicts between her and her idols, and her idol's with eachother.

It's a fun argument, but I wouldn't see it happening in all but a few isolated cases. It seems silly to me that when awakening, a child begins with a magic rating of more than one. Also, even if an abnormal child figured out how to cast a spell with a deadly potential, it does not mean he would fry his parents. Hell, with the violence in the media, I learned pretty early that you can stab some-one with a knife. However, as a child, despite having access to kitchen knives, I never attempted to stab my parents in their sleep, not even if they didn't let me have that new toy.

But then again, my parents were always very firm about that kind of thing, so I wasn't particularly spoiled. I did know a guy who's parents had spoiled him as a young one and as a teenager had learned to extort pretty much anything from them. Large amounts of money, computers, consoles, lifts, nothing could be said no to, and if they did, he would shout and swear at them, and they would give him what he wanted. I would be watching at the time, and it just made no sense to me.

[Malicant]

So, let me get this straight.

First you argue that it would not be possible for anyone to learn Arcana without College (later changed to 'higher education').

That's not what I meant, but it might indeed be what I said. Poor language skills and all.

You don't learn arcana by yourself from nothing. You need a teacher, or advanced magical knowledge. Or you need to be a Dragon or similar creature. Or plain mad
A toddler will not spontaniously develop the ability to formulate complex spell/spirit formula on pure instict alone. He might manifest spontanously minor stuff, but that will be rare, unpredictable and he will not terrorize his parents with it. He might try to do so, and the parent will hesitate to spank him for a moment. But after they got some advice on the topic he will just be a kid that one day might be a great mage. Or a lab rat.

That's more or less what I tried to say.

[kanislatrans]

as I see it ,Magic in the shadowrun sense needs to meet three criteria; ability to wield magic, will to focus the manipulation of mana, and the imagination to mold that mana into usable shape. I think if a toddler had the first, the other two are already naturally in place.
Using my daughter who is three as an example, she definitely has the imagination for the job. she makes up her own songs(spell formula?), has conversations with inanimate objects( no different than your mage buddy always talking to things only he can see), and most importantly, has very few preconceived ideas about what can or cannot happen in "the real world".
As for Will to work magic, When she is trying to write her letters or numbers, she focuses on the task completely. There is no mommy or daddy, only the pen and the paper. of course, with a 15 minute attention span it doesn't last, but how long does it take to conjure an "imaginary friend"?
I definitely wouldn't want to deal with a fully awakened toddler. The lack of understanding of consequences would definitely shake the house up( or burn it down ) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)
Magic, as I see it , is a natural expression of certain genetics traits. those traits will manifest weather the person has training or not. (IMHO)

[Malicant]

Only thing is, metahumans don't do Magic naturally. So, while a kid might make up it's own songs, it's could not make up it's own spell without someone telling him how to do it in the first place.

Also, note that the first mages, those not instructed by IEs that is, used paradigms of old times, like hermetic magic, or shamanism, so they didn't come up with new stuff. They used other peoples stuff and then expanded.

And, I have not streched that enough, the books about dragons told us, how they wield magic the same way we learn to walk and how they pity metahumans for needing so much effort to achieve so little.

So, no, a 3 year old spell slinger that does anything conciously but still is metahuman is a no go with the magical theories of SR so far. It would be an anomaly, borderline a magical threat. Not something more then few people per century have to worry about.


Maybe, think of magic as crafting a sword. Anyone can pour hot metal in a form and the product would look like a sword, but it would be decoration at best. Folding metal on the other hand and forging a usefull weapon out of it requires discipline, knowledge and experience you don't gather by yourself in a couple of weeks. As does real magic. Especially arcana.

On second though, that metaphor sucks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) Whatever, still might help to understand my thoughts on this.

[apollo124]

But there you kind of get back to the chicken or the egg question. Howling Coyote wasn't (as far as we know) an IE, so who taught him magic? His mentor spirit. If you look waaaay back in the Secrets of Power trilogy, someone asked Sam when he cast his first spell. He thought that it was as an adult when he protected himself from a fireball, but was shown that as a child he either cast an invisibility spell over himself and his sister on the Night of Rage or conjured a spirit which hid them. So I think that maybe a mentor spirit could, if it wished teach a child to conjure a spirit or cast a spell.

This isn't even counting that Matrix access is overwhelmingly available. How many open source spells could someone find online in 2070? Online magic classes would be a dim second choice to finding a real teacher, but you could probably get some basics easily enough. Does the Dunkelzahn Institute do pro-bono classes for young mojo-slingers? Weird Jack down the street slings magic and he might teach you some for booze money.

But the real trouble would come when most kids awaken magically, during the teen years. What is on a teenager's mind 90% of the time? SEX! What if you lived in a world where it actually was possible to turn yourself invisible and sneak into the girls' locker room? How about just astral projecting there during study hall? Or if you tick off your girlfriend, who has a locket of your hair, and she sends some nasty mojo down on you?

[Malicant]

I kind of said that the first mages used old paradigms like hermetic magic and shamanism. Also, Coyote used some sick blood magic, so it is fair to assume he had advisors. Espacially since some of the native supporters turned out to be frickin Ehran and who ever else was pulling strings.

Seriously though, that's too much IEs for me.

Back to Sam and his spell. Wups, I did mention spontaneous manifestations, yap, got that covered. He did not conciously cast the spell, nor did he learn it or anything. He got lucky, something that tends to happen. Anomaly. That spontaneous potential is lost the moment someone explain to you how to work magic. But as long as no one explain it to you, it's just that, spontaneous.

Back to the Matrix. 3 year old. Who understand he's a mage. And can access the matrix good enough to acces open source magical theories. Sure. Double genius.

I never said it's impossible. I only say it's a non factor, not something happing often enough to get any attention.

[hyzmarca]

But there you kind of get back to the chicken or the egg question. Howling Coyote wasn't (as far as we know) an IE, so who taught him magic?

Wovoka was taught the GGD by an Immortal Half-Elf (don't ask what the other half is), actually. Presumably, Howling Coyote learned it from Wovoka's successor or directly from the aforementioned half-elf. Twist is a substantially better example.

Back to the Matrix. 3 year old. Who understand he's a mage. And can access the matrix good enough to access open source magical theories. Sure. Double genius.

Three might be a little young. Anthony was a whole six years old when he began terrorizing his town, after all.

The fact that ancient traditions were common sources of inspiration doesn't matter because, as the dragons have said, they're all wrong. Anybody can create his own tradition.

[Malicant]

The immortal Half-Elf. Right. Totally forgot that he tried that one before. Thanks for the refreshment.

[apollo124]

Back to Sam and his spell. Wups, I did mention spontaneous manifestations, yap, got that covered. He did not conciously cast the spell, nor did he learn it or anything. He got lucky, something that tends to happen. Anomaly. That spontaneous potential is lost the moment someone explain to you how to work magic. But as long as no one explain it to you, it's just that, spontaneous.

I did forget to mention, near the end of "Never Deal With A Dragon", Sam has a vision/conversation with Dog, who teaches him a spell on the spot. This is after the guy realizes he is a shaman and is old enough to have at least some grasp on what that means. So his mentor spirit taught him the spell, thus it can happen like that to others.

The spontaneous outburst is kind of what we're talking about with the young ones awakening. Would they be uncontrolled little hellions? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) Bear in mind, this doesn't happen in a vacuum here. Kids would still remember growing up and the lessons they learned from childhood. Discipline and responsibility are things most good parents teach their kids starting at a very young age. So, on a case by case basis, I think maybe some would be bad and some good. Just like adults. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Malicant]

I did forget to mention, near the end of "Never Deal With A Dragon", Sam has a vision/conversation with Dog, who teaches him a spell on the spot. This is after the guy realizes he is a shaman and is old enough to have at least some grasp on what that means. So his mentor spirit taught him the spell, thus it can happen like that to others.

Then again, that was like SR1 and SR4 has a diffrent take on this. Still, he can be a magical oddity. OR, the whole vision is just his mental construct to explain to himself how he learnd a spell. Basically his interpretation of using arcana.

The spontaneous outburst is kind of what we're talking about with the young ones awakening. Would they be uncontrolled little hellions? devil.gif Bear in mind, this doesn't happen in a vacuum here. Kids would still remember growing up and the lessons they learned from childhood. Discipline and responsibility are things most good parents teach their kids starting at a very young age. So, on a case by case basis, I think maybe some would be bad and some good. Just like adults. vegm.gif

This discussion does not seem to deal with kids old enough to have developed discipline or a moral compass. That's at least the impression I got.

[Cthulhudreams]

I've always figured that awakening is pretty much something that happens later in life (late teens), because you have to have a grasp of ritual symbolism and abstract concepts that just isn't within the established cognitive reach of a 3 year old.

You could get in trouble with an 8 year old though. Someone who awakens at 8 might be the guy who ends up doing the toaster thing. You need to be able to formulate the concept of a tradition, or have the discipline to learn spells. Both of those are probably possible at 8, but not at 3.