Sensor Ratings, How do you get them, what do they do? Options

[Nightwalker450]

Trying to figure out how to boost the sensor rating on a device. But all I've found is the sensor software in arsenal. But is this sensor rating, or just advanced clearsoft? It seems more like specific clearsofts. If these are actual sensor things, then to boost a sensor rating would you have to raise all of these to an equal level? 10 Sensor software, but then these can stack on each other and provide additional dice pools so that doesn't seem right.

Did something just become complicated that should of been as easy as upping signal/response of a device?

Someone help set me straight, preferably Canon, and not house rules.

[Nightwalker450]

Ahhh... Ok.. I found it and it makes less sense than before

If a character improves the ratings of all of the individual components in a sensor package, the overall Sensor rating of the vehicle should also be improved accordingly.

So if I improve all the (non-existant) components in a sensor package it gets better?

Oh, but vehicles (which usually have a sensor of 1) start with:

• Atmosphere Sensor (taking up 1 Capacity)
• 2 Cameras (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• 2 Motion Sensors (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
• Radar (taking up 5 Capacity)

So these are all rating 1?
Any other drone gets up to its Capacity in these, and they are all rating 3?

And then to use these it gets Sensor (Device Rating) + Clearsoft? So things like a Geiger counter which don't have a rating, roll.... nothing? So geiger counters just say "Yes Radiation" or "No Radiation" Automatic success.

Is this sensor's done properly?

[Jaid]

you've pretty much found all the rules on upgrading sensor rating that i'm aware of. i recommend you just ignore those rules, and houserule something in (perhaps use the same costs as upgrading signal rating for wireless devices?)

particularly since that rule means a vehicle with a rating 6 sensor of some kind (and no other sensors) has sensor rating 6, but a vehicle with a rating 6 sensor and a rating 1 sensor has a rating of 1.

[kzt]

So we "upgrade" the vehicle sensors by getting rid of all but the rating 6 microphone.

[Malicant]

When I read that part I felt a headache coming, so I ignored it for the moment. Use something similar to response, pilot, or whatever programs/components seem to have a decent price on them.

[Nightwalker450]

Yeah, sensor rating does nothing. Sensor rating is just the rating of the devices, a sensor rating on a vehicle means that the default (listed above) are all at that rating to begin with. These are preloaded into the capacity, and there's a test to remove these and replace them.

Removing all but the rating 6, would give the device 6 sensor, but it would only have the 1 way of sensing.

So in short there is no vehicular sensor rating. Its just saying that all the sensors are the same.

It's like saying your Strength is 4, when you have a strength of 2 and a rating 8 strength arm. Your average strength is 4, but your Arm will use 8, your other parts will use 2, only if you use the average full body average would you use 4.

[Nightwalker450]

The sensor software looks to be used for the things that would be too ridiculously cheap by just allowing a 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per rating vision/hearing enhancement. So Vision Tracking Software would be most likely used in combination with a Vision Enhancement to provide the sensor which is used in conjunction with a riggers gunnery skill. As to how this affects standard issue drones, they'd probably come with the software as well at Sensor Rating.

So the Roto Drone (Sensor 3), would have a camera with Vision Enhancement (rating 3), and Tracking Software (rating 3). Which provides the Sensor necessary for gunnery. As to other sensors I would have on the standard issue (Capacity 5 i think), 2 Motion Sensors, 1 Laser Range Finder, and Atmospheric Sensor. Possibly swap out the Atmospheric for the second camera. But each of these devices would be at rating 3 to begin with.

If you upgrade all of these devices by 1, then your drone would then effectively have a Sensor of 4. If you upgrade the Laser Range Finder to 6, and rip everything out, you have a sensor of 6... But thats only good at telling how far away you are from that pinpoint laser. Sensor of 6, but likely to crash into chainlink fences, or fail routinely at clearing bridges by not flying high enough or low enough... And likely to be killed by the first truck with reflective coating.

Sensors make sense from Canon now. But I still have a headache, and this made creating a rigger a bit more complicated.

[kzt]

But does the game mechanics make a distinction between having a 6 lR that gives you a 6 and having an overall rating of 6, or is having an overall rating of 4 using real sensors better than having a single sensor at 6? You get what you reward. . . .

[Dashifen]

I'm not sure I follow you completly, kzt, but I think it might be worth while to have the full quote from Arsenal:

Each vehicle and drone has a Sensor rating that acts as an abstract composite of all of the sensors in the vehicle combined. This Sensor rating should be used for most situations.

Under certain circumstances, a gamemaster may decide that certain vehicle sensors may not apply, or that only one specific type of sensor is relevant to the situation at hand. Some sensors might just not be suitable for the given task, may be pointing into the wrong direction, and so on. In this case, consider the applicable sensor to have the same rating as the vehicle’s Sensor rating. If the character has previously modifi ed the sensor package, individual sensors may have their own ratings, as appropriate. Likewise, a gamemaster can always rule that certain individual sensor components have a lesser or higher rating than the overall sensor package.

If a character improves the ratings of all of the individual components in a sensor package, the overall Sensor rating of the vehicle should also be improved accordingly.

In other words, the sensor rating for a vehicle is exactly like a device ration for other electronics. It's a single number that can be used in place of that vehicles various sensor devices for when a GM or player is simply using an off-the-shelf model or they've just stolen a vehicle and there's no stats worked up for it.

But, I think for rigger characters who modify their own vehicles to enhance it's capabilities, it's perfectly acceptable to forgo the concept of a single sensor rating and have specific ratings for the different sensing devices that are equipped on the drone. Also, don't forget that, the capacity and signal rating for vehicles/drones can still be found in SR4 on p. 325:

• Microdrones have a capacity of 1 and a signal of 2
• Minidrones have a capacity of 3 and a signal of 3
• Small Drones have a capacity of 5 and a signal of 4
• Medium Drones have a capacity of 6 and a signal of 4 (from the Errata)
• Large Drones have a capacity of 8 and a signal of 4
• Vehicles have a capacity of 12 and a signal of 5

Thus, I would allow a character (PC or NPC) to purchase a "blank" vehicle with no sensor enhancements and then choose the specific ones they want to add into the vehicle. Especially since the capacity of the enhancement is not based on the rating of that enhancement, you can have a variety of different sensors at different ratings depending on the needs of the drone.

[hobgoblin]

that makes a scary amount of sense. basically that what we see in the books are default vehicle setups as they roll out of the factory.

default sensory package with every component at rating x, as given in the vehicle stats.

when one go beyond that, well...

[Nightwalker450]

Don't purchase a blank vehicle (unless you're getting a discount), take out the sensors and replace them. Extra spare parts for riggers are good. (Anyone looking to purchase a rating 2 pilot for a Bust-A-Move doll, Or I have a few extra rating 1 camera's I can sell?) It's a GM's call really, but my Technomancer (turning mechanic) is gathering up a small stash of standard grade sensors/programs as I swap out old ones. I might black market them (if cash becomes tight), but for the moment I'm holding onto them to put into future drones/vehicles. Riggers should look at it as free spare parts that they don't have to purchase later, though its hell to keep track of all these parts, I've probably lost a few now, just in the general rubbish.

[Jaid]

the problem with having sensor rating tied into the rating of the individual sensors is that many of the sensors don't go very high in rating, and that affects the dicepool for drones and vehicles attacking. the rigger should be able to get his 'attribute' for gunnery (which is sensor) to be higher than 3, but there is no way to simply upgrade the rating of, say, a camera (or, if you just count the camera's improved visual rating, it can't ever go higher than 3).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The real fun thing is:

As soon as you mount a Camera on a drone, it suddenly not only becomes unable to see metahumans (Sensor Test -3 with a Sensor pool of 3), but also can't take pictures when a jammer is around.
An external camera, on the other hand, is perfectly fine.

Basically, the Sensor Rules are completely FUBAR.

A fix might be to read 'Sensor Rating' as 'Drone Intuition' and threat Sensor Tests as Perception Tests - jamming and targeting is only possible with Radar, which is handled by the Signal Rating of the Sensor package and uses the rules for Sensor Tests.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Even more Sensor fun:

The BBB gave us a general purpose Atmospheric Sensor and a Geiger Counter.

Now ARSE adds Barometer, Radiation Sensor and a Thermometer - to what purpose? They only cost more and do nothing the sensor from the BBB wouldn't.

And the Extralarge Vehicle Sensor class is missing from the Compiled Tables, too...

[Dashifen]

As soon as you mount a Camera on a drone, it suddenly not only becomes unable to see metahumans (Sensor Test -3 with a Sensor pool of 3), but also can't take pictures when a jammer is around.
An external camera, on the other hand, is perfectly fine.

Basically, the Sensor Rules are completely FUBAR.

A fix might be to read 'Sensor Rating' as 'Drone Intuition' and threat Sensor Tests as Perception Tests - jamming and targeting is only possible with Radar, which is handled by the Signal Rating of the Sensor package and uses the rules for Sensor Tests.

I've always run sensor tests as Pilot + Sensor (+ Clearsight) - Modifiers. That usually helps to work around the fact that most drones can't target people after the -3 for targeting a metahuman. Seems to have worked out pretty well but I admit to infrequently using drones as more than flavor.

[Nightwalker450]

The signature modifiers only come into play for detecting. Which is why you need to load clearsight into a drone for it to be better at detecting. Does a rigger using the drones sensor need to use the signature table, because if he's looking at a camera he can tell whats metahuman and whats background...

I think I need to read the signature stuff more.

[Dashifen]

You're right, Nightwalker450, that section is probably worth reviewing. I always applied Signature modifications to any action involving sensors. That was, of course, before rules for radar and such were in the system and I always assumed (prior to Arsenal) that drone's Sensors were separate from their visual equipment and were more of a radar-like sense.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Well, luckily, Radar is a Sensor with a rating from 1-6 when consulting the Compiled Tables - so using the Signature and Jamming Rules actually makes sense for it.

And:

Sensors are the vehicular equivalent of the Intuition attribute.
Almost all vehicles in Shadowrun have some kind of sensor array, if only to interact with GridGuide and other traffic network systems. Only retro pre-Crash vehicles lack sensors, and most of them are retrofitted with add-on sensors.
When driving a vehicle, a driver may use the Sensor attribute instead of Intuition when making Perception Tests and other Intuition-linked Success Tests. Drones always use the Sensor attribute for Perception Tests.

So Drones don't need to make Sensor Tests at all (except if they want to...) - they can do Perception Tests just fine.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Oh, and for total Sensor madness... check the Sensor Rating of an Emotitoy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

It's 3!

A friggin 100 bucks toy has a better sensor rating than every professional minidrone.

Yay again for tech & world consistency.

[Nightwalker450]

This thread is being brought back out of the dust... But here's the interesting thing

Sensor Rating of a vehicle can only be 3 at most, with a possibility of higher radar

• Atmosphere Sensor (taking up 1 Capacity)
Max Rating 3, 25 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per

• 2 Cameras (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
Max Vision Enhancement Rating 3, 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per

• 2 Laser Range Finders (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
No Ratings

• 2 Motion Sensors (front and back, taking up 2 Capacity)
No Ratings

• Radar (taking up 5 Capacity)
Max Rating 6, 200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per

So to raise a vehicle's sensor rating total price is 425 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per rating max rating 3. So since vehicles can get no more than 3 sensor for shooting a gun, software isn't necessarily required, until you want to go beyond that. Then possibly the motion tracking software can get you some more dice. Unless one were to try and use Radar for targetting....

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The only Sensor that can sensibly use the Signature rules is Radar - so Sensor Targeting is useful if you have Radar.


But Arsenal is wrong anyways - Sensor Rating is not the made-up total rating of Sensors. It's the vehicles Intution, as stated in the main book, used for Perception Tests. It can't really vary because one uses Intuation for Sensors that have no rating themselves.

So Sensors that don't have a rating themselves (and no, Vision/Audio Enhancement is not a Rating) would use the Sensor Attribute.
Every other Sensor uses it's own Rating... and the Radar Sensor can happily use the rules for Sensor Tests.

That's the only way it blends in with the rules on non-vehicle Sensors and Perception.

[BRodda]

Don't purchase a blank vehicle (unless you're getting a discount), take out the sensors and replace them. Extra spare parts for riggers are good. (Anyone looking to purchase a rating 2 pilot for a Bust-A-Move doll, Or I have a few extra rating 1 camera's I can sell?) It's a GM's call really, but my Technomancer (turning mechanic) is gathering up a small stash of standard grade sensors/programs as I swap out old ones. I might black market them (if cash becomes tight), but for the moment I'm holding onto them to put into future drones/vehicles. Riggers should look at it as free spare parts that they don't have to purchase later, though its hell to keep track of all these parts, I've probably lost a few now, just in the general rubbish.

Why can I see your TM in a pinch needing to build a custom drone on the fly from spare parts and end up using that Bust-A-Move pilot in it; with the personality software still enabled...

[Rotbart van Dain...]

There's nothing like Doberman drones with Paininducers and a dancing soft:
They dance... and so does everyone else. Well, kinda.

[hobgoblin]

someone is having fun i see...

[wavydavy]

But Arsenal is wrong anyways - Sensor Rating is not the made-up total rating of Sensors. It's the vehicles Intution, as stated in the main book, used for Perception Tests. It can't really vary because one uses Intuation for Sensors that have no rating themselves.

So Sensors that don't have a rating themselves (and no, Vision/Audio Enhancement is not a Rating) would use the Sensor Attribute.
Every other Sensor uses it's own Rating... and the Radar Sensor can happily use the rules for Sensor Tests.

That's the only way it blends in with the rules on non-vehicle Sensors and Perception.

I agree, but how does one then upgrade a drone's Sensor Rating (intuition)?

These rules (and the matrix/rigger rules in general) are easily the most difficult to understand, inconsistent and generally FUBAR SR ruleset, IMO.

It's odd, because the I like the general SR4 overhaul, but it feels like the rigger rules were "OMG 2 weeks 'till publish deadline and no rigger rules yet" type situation. I'd hoped arsenal would fix it, and did for somethings, but not for this.

I'll have to dig out rigger 3 and convert its sensor upgrades to sr4.