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> Cyberware Commlinks and Sim Modules, My latest stupid question
Sombranox
post Feb 11 2008, 01:59 AM
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Short question. Does the internal commlink cyberware require the internal sim module cyberware to use VR, or does the commlink itself have one built in that is used (and can be modified to hot sim)?

There's some things in the books that imply it's one way or the other, so I'm just looking for other people's take on it.

This post has been edited by Redjack: Feb 15 2008, 06:57 PM
Reason for edit: Flagged as sr4
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Kanada Ten
post Feb 11 2008, 02:04 AM
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The cost of an implanted Sim Module only makes sense if you cannot add one as an integral accessory to an implanted commlink. Sadly.
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Fuchs
post Feb 11 2008, 02:05 AM
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That's currently being debated in this thread (The thread's about magic, but the Sim Module is what they talk abou for half the thread, especially around pages 8-10).
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 02:09 AM
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I should refer to my mud battle in another thread, but I will give you some arguments, why you don't need a sim module implant.

Number 1: My favorite, actually.
QUOTE (BBB p.228)
Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial commlinks also contain sim modules


Number 2: The Hacker sample character. While having a crenial commlink, that is hot simmed, he does not posses a sim module. Neither implant, nor external.

Number 3: The sim module is a seperate implant, not listed like an upgrade to the commlink. Also, the description says it's popular with simchippers and BTL junkies. They could have mentioned right on this spot, that is als necessary to oparete Full VR. They didn't.

Number 4: And this is more like shooting in my own foot to prove my point, but, heck, whatever. The sim module itself states, it can be hooked to an internal commlink. That would seem weird, but if you think of the internal comlink as a legal headware, meaning only cold sim and you are in need of some hot sim for illegal activities like hacking or BTL, it might be a good idea not to have your work equipment modified for such a thing if exposure would be harmful.
So, if you want to chip after a day of work, you hook your modified sim module to your brain instead of tampering with the stuff in your head you need to work. Assuming you were not a runner, that is.

As long as there is no errata to contradict my reasoning, I will follow this. If this will ever be changed, I will STFU, but houserule it back into what I think is the right thing to do.

Damn, so many typos... I love the edit function.
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Fortune
post Feb 11 2008, 02:09 AM
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You saved me from making a topic on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The implanted commlink is clearly described in the gear section as being an internal version of a normal commlink (which does not include a sim module as standard). The sim module is listed separately in the Gear section, yet cannot be used alone, as it must be used with an accompanying commlink. Each is listed as having a separate Essence cost. In my opinion, the implanted commlink does not come with a sim module accessory already included as standard.

As to what I think it the rules should be, then I believe that accessories should not cost Essence, but they should cost money.
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Kanada Ten
post Feb 11 2008, 02:34 AM
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My edition of SR4 page 228 says nothing about cranial commlinks. Nor does the errata [edit](though I have second printing, thus newer printings may)[/edit].

QUOTE (SR4 page 228)
A simsense module is required to access full VR. The sim module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack or trode net. Simrigs (both worn and implanted) also contain sim modules. As a safety precaution...
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Slymoon
post Feb 11 2008, 02:44 AM
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To tag on a question:

What do you need for BTLs?

p.250 Second Column first paragraph:
QUOTE
...The second format, which is much easier to get, is the "direct input" chip. These more complex chips contain all the necessary electronics, so a user merely needs to slot the chip directly into an old-fashioned chipjack or datajack (no simdeck required).


Now since no sim hardware is required shouldn't this be usable in the chipslots in a commlink?

ala:

BTL (2nd edition) > Datajack > Brain
or
BTL (2nd edition) > Commlink slot > Datajack > Brain
or
BTL (2nd edition) > Commlink slot > Trode/ nanopaste trode > Brain


p.320/ 321 last and first paragraphs under Knowsoft and Linguasoft:
QUOTE
...must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack)


This clearly differentiates Knowsofts/ Linguasofts from BTLs.
But logic stats that if they can design a BTL that doesn't need a simrig but can operate with RAS or without, then both the afor mentioned chips should also operate this way.


Second part of my question:
Now that nearly everything has a DNI, what is required to control a Commlink? (aside from AR gloves or manual and so on)

Datajack> Commlink
and /or
Trode/ Nanopaste trode > Commlink

If my Cybereye has a DNI (which it does) can that be modified to control the commlink? sounds far fetched, again logic states that a DNI is not omnipresent in the brain, but rather specific to the 'ware being controlled. Which leads to the reason a DataJack DNI or Sim Module DNI is required for the more intensive (read) Overall type controls.

Which also means for example:

p.101 Street Samurai
Does not have a datajack or simrig but does have a smartlink in his eyes. So he can control each of his cyber pieces though each of their internal DNI, but cannot control his Commlink except for manually or AR gloves.
ie: If he wanted to transmit data to his runner friends or search teh matrix he would again have to do it manually.

Right?

(please correct any and all of the above as necessary)
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 02:50 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 11 2008, 03:34 AM) *
My edition of SR4 page 228 says nothing about cranial commlinks. Nor does the errata [edit](though I have second printing, thus newer printings may)[/edit].

I have LE, so first printing. Weird though, the errata does not mention anything about that. So, I guess I'm still at large, second printing is discarded as an anomaly. Lalala, you can't contradict me... dammit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Maybe only LE commlinks come with sim modules. another nice treat for me, then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Kanada Ten
post Feb 11 2008, 03:16 AM
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Judging by the section on BTL Downloads, it doesn't seem a direct-input beetle would be hindered by a commlink between the chip and brain.

There's nothing to suggest that manufacturers cannot create direct-input knowsofts and linguasofts (just look at personafix chips), however, they don't have much need, since sim modules and datajacks are relatively common.

DNI means the individual implanted device has controls which one can operate with their mind. Implanted commlinks, for example, can be completely controlled with thought; and input/output through a datajack can be controlled by thought, and so on. But DNI is specific mental controls for each device.

Datajack/Trode > Sim Module + Commlink
Sim Module > Datajack/Trode > Commlink

But my SR4 has the Street Samurai commlink including a Sim Module (though not hot modified as the Sprawl Ganger's commlink is).

(And damnit, cranial commlinks should have sim modules, and smartlinks shouldn't require an imagelink if you have a sim module, because the street sam doesn't have an imagelink anyway!)
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Sombranox
post Feb 11 2008, 03:17 AM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 10 2008, 10:09 PM) *
I should refer to my mud battle in another thread, but I will give you some arguments, why you don't need a sim module implant.

Number 1: My favorite, actually.


QUOTE (SR4 228)
A simsense module is required to access full VR. The sim
module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack
or trode net. Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial
commlinks also contain sim modules.


Second paragraph under Virtual Realities heading in my pdf version of the BBB.

I knew I'd read somewhere that it said pretty much explicitly that the cranial had a sim module in it, so that kind of answers it for me I think. Thanks for giving the page Mal.

If that text really isn't anywhere in some printings of the BBB, then someone should probably try to bring it to the devs attention so they can put something in the FAQ or next errata or something like that.

Back to the question, with it explicitly saying cranials have in-built sim module, I'd probably just say that the standalone sim module are there only for people looking to use them to jack BTLs into and/or possibly someone wanting a more discrete hot module to use with an external commlink. (See officer, just a normal commlink. Nothing illegal here.)
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 03:20 AM
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Yeah, smart requiring image link can seem a bit weird, but heck, it has been clearly said it is needed, so at least not much confusion here.

YES! I have a beliver! Now we are unstoppable. If we cared. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Kanada Ten
post Feb 11 2008, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (Sombranox @ Feb 10 2008, 09:17 PM) *
Back to the question, with it explicitly saying cranials have in-built sim module, I'd probably just say that the standalone sim module are there only for people looking to use them to jack BTLs into and/or possibly someone wanting a more discrete hot module to use with an external commlink. (See officer, just a normal commlink. Nothing illegal here.)

Now, what do you pay to hot modify that "cranial" commlink's sim module? (I'd guess +3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to match the internal sim module's modification).
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 03:26 AM
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That's how I would handle it. Would be fairly consistent since the increase from cold to hot sim seems to raise the cost to 250% of the unmodified version.
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Slymoon
post Feb 11 2008, 03:30 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 10 2008, 09:16 PM) *
Judging by the section on BTL Downloads, it doesn't seem a direct-input beetle would be hindered by a commlink between the chip and brain.

There's nothing to suggest that manufacturers cannot create direct-input knowsofts and linguasofts (just look at personafix chips), however, they don't have much need, since sim modules and datajacks are relatively common.

DNI means the individual implanted device has controls which one can operate with their mind. Implanted commlinks, for example, can be completely controlled with thought; and input/output through a datajack can be controlled by thought, and so on. But DNI is specific mental controls for each device.

Datajack/Trode > Sim Module + Commlink
Sim Module > Datajack/Trode > Commlink

But my SR4 has the Street Samurai commlink including a Sim Module (though not hot modified as the Sprawl Ganger's commlink is).

(And damnit, cranial commlinks should have sim modules, and smartlinks shouldn't require an imagelink if you have a sim module, because the street sam doesn't have an imagelink anyway!)



Gotcha.

Datajack is like the old datajack still, ala input/output only (+ memory now + acts as a chipjack)
Sim module is the piece of hardware that allows for VR input to brain and brain to control comm? through trodes/ datajack or from an implanted comm.

Oh and they changed the cyber eyes now: they include an image link and recording device standard.
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Sombranox
post Feb 11 2008, 03:31 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 10 2008, 11:24 PM) *
Now, what do you pay to hot modify that "cranial" commlink's sim module? (I'd guess +3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to match the internal sim module's modification).


And if not paid for, I wonder whether the Hardware+Logic(10, hour) test is still possible, or if it would require a cybertechnology role and the hardware, or what.

I mostly just am happy not to have to dump another 0.2 essence on what seemed like a redundant piece of hardware to me when already having to pay more to have the commlink implanted in the body or cyberlimb.
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 03:49 AM
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I guess it would indeed be a Cybertech, not a Hardware test. And it would require minor surgery, I guess. Not something you do in front of your mirror, but should be done easily by any streetdoc worth his money. At least, if he is sober. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fortune
post Feb 11 2008, 04:52 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
My edition of SR4 page 228 says nothing about cranial commlinks. Nor does the errata [edit](though I have second printing, thus newer printings may)[/edit].

QUOTE
I have LE, so first printing. Weird though, the errata does not mention anything about that. So, I guess I'm still at large, second printing is discarded as an anomaly. Lalala, you can't contradict me... dammit.


Oddly, my 3rd printing does contain that phrase.
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 04:59 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 11 2008, 05:52 AM) *
Oddly, my 3rd printing does contain that phrase.

I guess that's a good thing, then. Little weird, though.
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Kanada Ten
post Feb 11 2008, 05:09 AM
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I'm not crazy. See. Why do I get the book that doesn't mention it?
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 05:10 AM
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You might not be crazy, but your book seems to have some serious issues. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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jago668
post Feb 11 2008, 05:21 AM
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I have a "corrected 4th printing" of the main book. It makes no mention of a cranial commlink having a built in sim module.

QUOTE
Page 228
A simsense module is required to access full VR. The sim module is a commlink accessory that you access with a datajack or trode net. Simrigs (both worn and implanted) also contain sim modules. As a safety precaution...
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Kanada Ten
post Feb 11 2008, 05:23 AM
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Bah, then on page 218 it says "A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, ect)." Emphasis mine. *Annoyed*
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 05:23 AM
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So, the even printings, don't get sim modules in their crenial commlinks, while the uneven do. Let's wait for 5th printing. That will be hillarious.
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KCKitsune
post Feb 11 2008, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 10 2008, 10:16 PM) *
(And damnit, cranial commlinks should have sim modules, and smartlinks shouldn't require an imagelink if you have a sim module, because the street sam doesn't have an imagelink anyway!)


OK, noob here (bows to everyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )... Kanada the Street Sammie on p101 of the PDF version of the SR4 core book has Cybereyes. Therefore he has an image link and an eye recorder for free)

Now on pg 228 of the PDF version of the SR4 Core book it states: "Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial commlinks also contain sim modules." So to me, this says that the implanted Commlink has a free sim module.
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Malicant
post Feb 11 2008, 05:58 AM
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"Fresh meat! I can make so may improvements!"


QUOTE
Now on pg 228 of the PDF version of the SR4 Core book it states: "Simrigs (both worn and implanted) and cranial commlinks also contain sim modules." So to me, this says that the implanted Commlink has a free sim module.

You got that right, but apprantly some printings don't have the crenial commlink part. Which is totally weird, since the errata does not mention it, and the words disappeared in 2nd printing, reappered in 3rd and then disappeared again in 4th.

So right know, stick with what makes you comfortable.

Do you have the Fifth printing by any chance? I guess the PDF version should be available now.
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