Lucifer Lamps Options

[Prime Mover]

This is probably covered somewhere but not finding it with search. Do these lamps just illuminate dual natured or does it allow mundanes to see into astral???

[Raij]

In the physical world, it allows characters with low-light vision to see in areas otherwise too dark and a +2 Perception test modifier to notice magic. In the astral plane it gives a +2 Astral visibility modifier. It does not give a mundane character astral perception.

[Prime Mover]

In the physical world, it allows characters with low-light vision to see in areas otherwise too dark. In the astral plane it gives a +2 Astral visibility modifier and a +2 Perception test modifier to notice magic. It does not give a mundane character astral perception.

That was my take, just making sure.

[GoldenAri]

The way I read the description astral forms would also cast faint physical shadows in the light of a lucifer lamp.

[Dashifen]

I think GoldenAri is right:

Physical and astral solids both block dual-natured light, causing unusual shadows on the physical and greater defi nition on the astral.

In other words, a spirit may not actually be illumniated on the physical plane, but its shadow might appear on the wall. Targetting the thing would still probably be very difficult (especially since it's would still be moving at Astral velocities) but it gives a mundane the potential for "seeing" an astral spirit.

I just wish they had an option for the Eye Lights system!

[Raij]

Reading the entry I'm inclined to agree.

That sentence could be directed more toward justifying the bonus for the +2 perception test to notice magic and I'm not sure how much it could help with spirits mechanically, but it sure sounds like nearby spirits give off "unusual shadows".

[apollo124]

I presume this is in "Arsenal". Sounds cool, but wouldn't that creep the hell out of you? You shine a light and nothing casts a shadow on the wall.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Relative to going on a bughunt without one...no, not creepy at all - this way you at least have slightly more warning.

[Jackstand]

In other words, a spirit may not actually be illumniated on the physical plane, but its shadow might appear on the wall. Targetting the thing would still probably be very difficult (especially since it's would still be moving at Astral velocities).

They actually still wouldn't be able to target it with anything, since there isn't actually anything physical there to hit. They would, though, be able to, say, find out that there's a watcher, or other astral lurker, lying in wait there, and they need to go a different way.

[Moon-Hawk]

They actually still wouldn't be able to target it with anything, since there isn't actually anything physical there to hit. They would, though, be able to, say, find out that there's a watcher, or other astral lurker, lying in wait there, and they need to go a different way.

What about an adept (assume no astral perception) with an active weapon focus?

[Jackstand]

What about an adept (assume no astral perception) with an active weapon focus?

That's a good question, but I think that the adept still has to be astrally active for his weapon focus to work on the spirit. The weapon would have an aura, but not an astral presence.

[stevebugge]

The high cost of the bulbs means they aren't likely to be used as an always on security feature, that's for sure. At 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) an hour each lamp would cost 876000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per year, Security Mages can probably still be hired for quite a bit less than that. However used in conjunction with things like GloMoss and Leeches this would give a mundane patrol team a away to try to verify a positive hit by a leech, and combined with a quicksilver camera a mundane team might (if they were pretty lucky) come away with a snapshot of an astral intruder.

[Ancient History]

I think that the adept still has to be astrally active for his weapon focus to work on the spirit. The weapon would have an aura, but not an astral presence.

Correct.

[FrankTrollman]

Correct.

Actually incorrect. Active foci are dual natured. Weapon foci are "effective against astral foes" whether you are astrally active or not (SR4, p. 192). It's only an Astral Combat test if you are personally astrally projecting (same page).

So yeah, if you are physical and it's astral, you can still use your blades skill to attack the astral target with your dual natured weapon. I suggest throwing reflective chaffe dust into the air so that the shadows of the astral forms are cast in visible 3-dimensional real space.

-Frank

[Moon-Hawk]

Of course, if the adept in question is targeting a purely astral entity, he'd have to be using Astral Combat anyway. Right? (Astral combat with dual-natured creatures can be confusing) And if he doesn't have astral perception, he probably doesn't have astral combat. But hey, he might, or he might not want to spend the action to use it right now, or else he won't have a complex action to attack anyway. It makes the situation stranger, but not impossible.

[Nightwalker450]

It probably goes without saying but apply modifier as seen fit, probably only a -4, maybe even -2 with the dust motes. You use astral combat if you don't have a foci or are not in your physical body, and charisma for damage. If you are in your physical body and have a foci, that straight blades skill and strength for damage.

[GoldenAri]

I'm pretty sure you'd need an active focus to hit the spirit, and that you'd use the appropriate weapon skill. I had thought that astral combat was for fighting when you are on the astral plane. An adept in this scenario is physical and just happens to be attacking something on a different plane.

[FrankTrollman]

Of course, if the adept in question is targeting a purely astral entity, he'd have to be using Astral Combat anyway. Right?

Not really, no. Dual natured attackers can use physical combat attacks against astral targets. That's why a single watcher can't automatically kill every Ghoul, Hellhound, Merrow, Thunderbird, and Barghest on the planet in extreme(ly slow) mortal kombat.

-Frank

[Moon-Hawk]

From the SR FAQ.

Do dual-natured characters/critters (including assensing characters) use their Physical or astral attributes when fighting an astral opponent?

Dual-natured characters are limited by their physical bodies. In astral combat, they move at meat body speeds (use regular physical Initiative) and use their Physical attributes for any tests. They engage astral opponents, however, using Astral Combat skill (+ Willpower).

Also.

Can you clarify what skills and attributes are used in astral combat?

Attacker (dual natured or astral) Rolls: Willpower + Astral Combat

Am I reading that wrong?

edit: Brevity not intended as confrontational. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[GoldenAri]

Well, I'll be damned...

Curse you FAQ *shakes fist*

[Raij]

I had exactly this question come up last night and I made the adept pick up astral combat to be able to hit a spirit with his weapon focus (with willpower + astral combat).

It made sense to me that if the adept used his physical body to attack the area on the physical plane that he believed the spirit to be astrally, he would be able to damage it with the dual-natured weapon focus.. but the rules didn't seem to back me up as Moon-Hawk quoted above and I wasn't ready to house rule anything.

[FrankTrollman]

That FAQ answer is straight wrong. Dual Natured critters don't have an Astral Combat skill. Astral Combat is a no default skill. That ruling is "Hellhounds automaticlaly lose all astral combat and any watcher will eventually peck them to death because there is literally no way for them to even try to defend themselves."

The FAQ occassionally has clunkers in it. That answer is one of them.

-Frank

[Dashifen]

Erring on the side of the defense of the FAQ writer(s), I don't think they intended to imply that you couldn't use other combat options as a dual-natured fighter, but that if you were using the Astral Combat skill, it's linked to your Willpower regardless of your current plane of existence. That answer does not preclude a dual-natured fighter from not using Astral Combat, however. Regardless, it's one of the FAQ answers that I tend to ignore for the reasons mentioned above.

[Raij]

I have reconsidered this after reading this paragraph Frank pointed to..

In physical combat, weapon foci add their Force in dice to the character’s dice pool for melee attacks. The character still relies on her Physical attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes him more effective. This also applies to astrally perceiving characters fighting an opponent on the astral plane. Weapon foci are effective against astral forms and continue to add their Force in dice against such enemies.

Seems like an adept with astral perception and a weapon focus wouldn't need astral combat to hit a spirit after all. Thanks Frank.

[Moon-Hawk]

I have reconsidered this after reading this paragraph Frank pointed to..



Seems like an adept with astral perception and a weapon focus wouldn't need astral combat to hit a spirit after all. Thanks Frank.

Damn it! I am sick and f#*%$ing tired of this issue. Okay, fine, so as per SR4 pg 192 weapon foci can be used. That doesn't help the hellhounds or the merrow or any other dual natured critters who aren't using a weapon focus.
SR4 pg 184: Astral Combat

Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally perceiving and dual natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Willpower + Astral Combat skill to fight wholly astral entities.

No correction in the errata. Pretty damn unambiguous, watchers pwn paracritters from here to absurdity.

edit: I'm ranting at the game/world, not any of you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)