Bad boys & the Star, watcha gonna do when sheriff john brown come for you? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Glayvin34]

One of my players did something that I'm fairly sure is illegal in Seattle- he Mind Probed an unwilling and unsuspecting target in a bar. I've always played that Mind Probe is obvious to anyone who is the target of it, I recall reading some fiction on the SR4 site a year or so ago that described someone being Mind Probed by a Dragon, and it felt like someone was flipping through their memories. The whole team left the bar post-haste as bouncers descended, but I don't want to just let them get away with Astral Assault. So I'm thinking that the next time the offending magician uses the same SIN that he showed the bouncer at the bar, Lone Star is going to show up.

What I'm wondering is if there is any canon method to deal with Crime and Punishment.

Obviously the team will be searched and stripped of their unlicensed restricted items and all forbidden items (unless they figure something out), but I'm not sure about the next step. Should it be like an assault charge nowadays, where the perp would go to central booking for a few days until bail is arranged? Then he would have to get a lawyer and go to criminal court in a few months/weeks?

This all might be a moot point given that my players might just blast Lone Star and try to get away, but if any other GMs have dealt with criminal prosecution and the UCAS Justice System, I'd love to hear about it.

[Dashifen]

For those who have a legal SIN (or a fake one that beats the verification) then I'd run the system similar to today. Arrest them, take their stuff, get details about them, flag the SIN as a having been arrested, and throw them in a holding cell. Mages might be magecuffed (see manatech in Aresenal) to help protect the mundane guards from magical capabilities. If they don't have a Criminal SIN, I think they'd be fast-tracked towards a trial and re-incarceration and or fines, depending on the situation.

And, for the SINless, they'd be given a Criminal SIN (step one) and then they'd be fast tracked like above. Or, if it's a megacorp, they might be volunteered into a testing program of some kind. The Azzies might just write you down for "religious observance" on the weekend, too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[stevebugge]

One of my players did something that I'm fairly sure is illegal in Seattle- he Mind Probed an unwilling and unsuspecting target in a bar. I've always played that Mind Probe is obvious to anyone who is the target of it, I recall reading some fiction on the SR4 site a year or so ago that described someone being Mind Probed by a Dragon, and it felt like someone was flipping through their memories. The whole team left the bar post-haste as bouncers descended, but I don't want to just let them get away with Astral Assault. So I'm thinking that the next time the offending magician uses the same SIN that he showed the bouncer at the bar, Lone Star is going to show up.

What I'm wondering is if there is any canon method to deal with Crime and Punishment.

Obviously the team will be searched and stripped of their unlicensed restricted items and all forbidden items (unless they figure something out), but I'm not sure about the next step. Should it be like an assault charge nowadays, where the perp would go to central booking for a few days until bail is arranged? Then he would have to get a lawyer and go to criminal court in a few months/weeks?

This all might be a moot point given that my players might just blast Lone Star and try to get away, but if any other GMs have dealt with criminal prosecution and the UCAS Justice System, I'd love to hear about it.

Not in SR4 that I'm familiar with, but in SR2 & SR3 there were tables of Legality codes along with tables for punishment. I unfortunately don't have them with me at work.

Assuming that this did not take place on Corporate Territory where the standard of proof and presumed innocent until proven guilty standard can be pretty much anything the corp wants, figure UCAS law is still loosely based on the Canadian and American interpretations of English Common Law.

Chances are there was enough astral residue to substantiate the complainant's claim of astral assault, making your player's character a suspect. There were probably a few wittnesses at the bar as well. This would be enough to get an arrest warrant issued against the SIN the character used (be it real or a fake). Once arrested, depending on the circumstances (quality of Lawyer, previous record) he would be charged and jailed until a bail hearing could be arranged. He may be eligible for bail or not, you may want to use an opposed social test of some type (either the character's or his lawyer's) to represent the proceedings. Then the Star goes to work making a case to present in the criminal trial. The player can try to subvert evidence and wittnesses or just try to flee if bailed, but will almost assuredly have someone or some piece of tech tailing him until the trial date. The trial could be good roleplaying fun, or could be reduced to a couple of tests depending on how your group wants to play it. If convicted the charcater will gaina criminal SIN, and face punishment (fines or prison time most likely) and may have to pay restitution as well.

EDIT: Kind of lost in all that was that you can have a lot of fun playing out interations with the legal system, Canon or not if it fits your game. The legal system probably can be reduced to a single test, but it might be more fun to play it out.

[Nightwalker450]

Depending on the force, by the time Lone Star gets there (bringing their own mage since they are investigating magic). They can probably get the caster's astral signature off of the person it was cast on. Then its realitively simple to have a spirit track down the astral signature. If he doesn't have a record, and it was fairly low force, he's likely to get a probation officer to make sure he is using his awakened abilities within the law.

[Dashifen]

Can a spirit search based on Astral Signatures? I don't think so. I've always assumed that LS employs spirits who assense signatures so and acts as a "database" for the information. That way they can connect crimes committed by the same mage, but there's no way that I can think of to search for a person with only their signature. Now if you could get a material link off the the glass they used at the bar or something like that it'd work out .... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[stevebugge]

There isn't really any reason to use an astral search tough. If I read the situation correctly the character inquestion got carded at a bar, so had to present an ID. Additionally he probably bought a drink so his active ID interacted with something. That ID record most likely has an image of the character attached (unless it's really low rating) though maybe not the proper name and address. The first thing that's likely to happen is that the ID gets blown when the Star shows up at a bogus address. Then the Star goes to work trying to match elements of the obviously fake ID to other ID's. Meanwhile the image is uploaded to drones civering public areas with image recognition software, and the SIN is flagged so that it reports anytime it's used. Astral forensics take sometime, but would probably focus on establishing an identity first, though if they got lucky with a good link they might use a spirit or ritual to track down the suspect. Keep in mind a ritual Clairvoyance spell may require a warrant, but could be very effective in establishing the characters location.

Short version is that just because the crime was magical in nature doesn't mean that the Star will automatically use a magical response or search method.

[Daddy's Litt...]

Why would they all have their gear taken? The mage did it. Let the Star nab the mage. Any particular reason they should round up everyone and maybe get into a fight with that troll in the corner when they only have a complaint on the mage? We would let them take the mage.

[tisoz]

One of my players did something that I'm fairly sure is illegal in Seattle- he Mind Probed an unwilling and unsuspecting target in a bar. I've always played that Mind Probe is obvious to anyone who is the target of it, I recall reading some fiction on the SR4 site a year or so ago that described someone being Mind Probed by a Dragon, and it felt like someone was flipping through their memories. The whole team left the bar post-haste as bouncers descended, but I don't want to just let them get away with Astral Assault. So I'm thinking that the next time the offending magician uses the same SIN that he showed the bouncer at the bar, Lone Star is going to show up.

How did anyone know who the "offending magician" was? Why is Lone Star involved? Did the victim file a complaint with Lone Star? How good was his evidence about the perpetrator's identity? How big a priority is this going to be to LS?

What I'm wondering is if there is any canon method to deal with Crime and Punishment.

Obviously the team will be searched and stripped of their unlicensed restricted items and all forbidden items (unless they figure something out), but I'm not sure about the next step. Should it be like an assault charge nowadays, where the perp would go to central booking for a few days until bail is arranged? Then he would have to get a lawyer and go to criminal court in a few months/weeks?

If the "offending magician" was identified, and if LS accepts the story and the id and if LS gets someone to the place where the id is used again before the "offending magician" has left, they will be questioned. Why the entire team would be searched is questionable unless they do something to prompt such a search. Depending on that, they may be searched or if the questioning is done "downtown", they will likely go through some weapon detectors which may prompt a search. Again, why the entire team is going downtown is questionable.

If the answers to the questions indicate a crime was committed, if the suspect is positively identified, or if a combination of circumstances makes it look like the suspect could be successfully prosecuted for the crime, they will be held usually pending bail. I know someone who was arrested for allegedly assaulting a police officer, bail was a predetermined/set amount, and they were out of jail in a matter of minutes. So I will infer most locales will have preset bail amounts that can be paid instantly. I have even heard of places accepting credit cards.

If a search turned up illegal items, the person will be booked and probably eligible to be released on the aforementioned bail system. If not, thn they woud get a plea and bail hearing, and could be released shortly after posting bail. For someone in custody, the plea entry and bail hearing is usually the first business day. A long line of people ahead of them might cause a slight delay. If there was this much traffic, the actual trial will be months away.

Btw, the person who was arrested for assaulting an officer, was never brought to trial and the statute of limitations expired.

[djinni]

The whole team left the bar post-haste as bouncers descended, but I don't want to just let them get away with Astral Assault. So I'm thinking that the next time the offending magician uses the same SIN that he showed the bouncer at the bar, Lone Star is going to show up.

the obvious question is do you have lonestar or aother appropriate enforcement squad show up anytime anyone does illegal activity?
let him get away with it. people get mugged all the time and no one does anything about it, most of the time no one fills out a police report because the star is not the noble alliance of good that the police squad is. the stories I've read mark the star as greedy underhanded and selfish.
someone posts a complaint and it gets shuffled to the bottom of the stack. UNLESS that person bribed them alot.
even if the star knows everything about them, where they live where they are RIGHT NOW, they'll let it slide because they have better things to do with their manpower. iuts the same reason that warrants never get issued and the offenders arrested.

[cx2]

Okay perhaps an unlicensed mage might give them reason to go chasing, may depend on force and how illegal that spell is.

Also while the star might ignore it this would also depend on where it happened. If it is in a reasonable neighbourhood they might well decide to pursue it, if it was in a rundown area perhaps not.

[Cthulhudreams]

The SIN should have an arrest warrant and the mage should bin it, then Lone Star will loose the scent. This is why you buy fake SINs, and this is how shadowrunners get away with being criminals

[hyzmarca]

One thing that many people forget about mind probe is that it is not cast directly on the target. It is a detection spell. Like all detection spells, it is cast on a subject and gives that subject a new sense. In the case of mind probe, it give the subject a psychic sense that can be used to probe an individual's mind. Being a sustained spell, it can be cast on a subject days ahead of time and the magician casting the spell does not need to be anywhere near the target when his mind is actually probed. So there is really no way for anyone to determine that you did it.

[Earlydawn]

I'm not convinced that Astral Assault is considered a crime unworthy of serious investigation. As Street Magic points out, magic is a topic of a great deal of ignorance, misinformation and xenophobia. Arresting a mugger or go-ganger probably won't have the same effect as arresting some mage that magically assaulted someone in public, as far as citizen perception is concerned. Magic also has far more destructive capability then, say, a lunatic with a rifle, or even an RPG. Based on the text in Street Magic, I'd say that Lone Star takes mind reading very seriously.

[djinni]

I'm not convinced that Astral Assault is considered a crime unworthy of serious investigation. As Street Magic points out, magic is a topic of a great deal of ignorance, misinformation and xenophobia. Arresting a mugger or go-ganger probably won't have the same effect as arresting some mage that magically assaulted someone in public, as far as citizen perception is concerned. Magic also has far more destructive capability then, say, a lunatic with a rifle, or even an RPG. Based on the text in Street Magic, I'd say that Lone Star takes mind reading very seriously.

right but what proof does he have?
can anyone just scream out "he did it! that's the guy how mind$#(!*#% me!!!! BURN THE WITCH!!!"

[Kremlin KOA]

One of my players did something that I'm fairly sure is illegal in Seattle

News at 11 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

- he Mind Probed an unwilling and unsuspecting target in a bar. I've always played that Mind Probe is obvious to anyone who is the target of it, I recall reading some fiction on the SR4 site a year or so ago that described someone being Mind Probed by a Dragon, and it felt like someone was flipping through their memories. The whole team left the bar post-haste as bouncers descended, but I don't want to just let them get away with Astral Assault. So I'm thinking that the next time the offending magician uses the same SIN that he showed the bouncer at the bar, Lone Star is going to show up.

Frankly, your plahyer's mistake was to not use alter memory on the target to make him forget the mind probe.

What I'm wondering is if there is any canon method to deal with Crime and Punishment.

Canonically, the PCs have no rights unless they are SINners
Summary Execution is legal, and more common than arrest of SINless. Also on the spot bribes fines are common

Obviously the team will be searched and stripped of their unlicensed restricted items and all forbidden items (unless they figure something out), but I'm not sure about the next step. Should it be like an assault charge nowadays, where the perp would go to central booking for a few days until bail is arranged? Then he would have to get a lawyer and go to criminal court in a few months/weeks?

This all might be a moot point given that my players might just blast Lone Star and try to get away, but if any other GMs have dealt with criminal prosecution and the UCAS Justice System, I'd love to hear about it.

[Fortune]

Canonically, the PCs have no rights unless they are SINners

Canonically, SINless have few rights, but they do have some.

Summary Execution is legal, and more common than arrest of SINless.

Can you give me a book quote for that?

[Ravor]

Bah, in the Sixth World you only have as many "rights" as you can afford, SINner or otherwise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[djinni]

Canonically, SINless have few rights, but they do have some.

it is perfectly legal to shoot a SINless as there is no SIN to associate with the dead person no charges can be pressed etc... its a dead end.
and when it states that it is common for SINless to go missing or get dissappeared instead of being arrested and tried, that kinda tells you they have no rights.

Can you give me a book quote for that?

um...all of them.

[Fortune]

Technically, everybody is supposed to have a SIN (it's illegal not to), but in reality, many people don't. Some had them erased; some lost them when the Matrix went down in '64 and getting a new one was too much of a hassle; some never had one at all because their births were never recorded. The SINless, as they're called, tend to operate outside the system and have a hard time doing anything legitimately, since not having a SIN marks you as either an alien or a person subject to lesser rights.

The UCAS introduced System Identification Numbers (SINs) in 2036, requiring the registration of every UCAS citizen. Individuals residing in the UCAS without a SIN are considered “probationary citizens,” which means they are not allowed to vote and have few to no civil rights. Nowadays, SINs are legally registered at birth—assuming the birth is legally recorded. Many births still happen outside of normal channels—especially in poor or barrens areas.

I see nothing in there about it being legal to kill SINless people indiscriminately (or even not indiscriminately).

SINless Consequences
If a SINless person is arrested, several things can happen. It is not uncommon for the SINless to be horribly abused, locked away, or “disappeared,” as they have no rights to speak of and no datatrail to even prove they exist. Most SINless arrestees, however, are issued a “criminal SIN”—which they are then stuck with for the rest of their lives. That SIN is now archived in multiple law-enforcement databases and indexed with their photograph, biometric prints, DNA records, and tissue sample. If you lack a SIN, many activities that normal citizens take for granted become impossible for you. For example, you need a SIN to get a legal job, open a bank account, own property, go to school, rent an apartment, establish utility services, and so forth. Most importantly, a SIN is now required for any form of legal travel—including just buying a bus ticket. Even those with criminal SINs will find it difficult to perform many of these activities without red tape and hassle. When an individual with a SIN dies, the SIN is tagged to indicate that it belongs to a deceased individual, and is then deactivated (but otherwise kept on file).

Even here, although it states that disappearances and mistreatment are common (shoplifting and tax evasion are also common, but not necessarily legal), it does not say anything about legally murdering SINless with wild abandon.

As I said, can you provide an actual book quote to back up that statement, or just spout bullshit like 'all of them'?

[Kremlin KOA]

I see nothing in there about it being legal to kill SINless people indiscriminately (or even not indiscriminately).



Even here, although it states that disappearances and mistreatment are common (shoplifting and tax evasion are also common, but not necessarily legal), it does not say anything about legally murdering SINless with wild abandon.

As I said, can you provide an actual book quote to back up that statement, or just spout bullshit like 'all of them'?

Wolf and Raven is the first example I would give off the top of my head. It references a young buy who was killed, the Lone Star Officer is quoted as saying "What investigation. No SIN, so it's not a murder."

I will need to scour the books to get some more for you

[Fortune]

That's just a single Lone Star cop making a decision not to go through the hassle of all the paperwork. That doesn't necessarily reflect either company policy or the legality of the matter. I freely admit that abuses and murders happen to SINless (maybe not on the scale that some of you might think though), but the fact remains that SINless do have some (very few, but some) rights, and it is not, in any way, shape or form, legal for them to just be hunted and slaughtered by one and all.

I gave you quotes. That is what SR4 has to say about the consequences of being SINless. If it were in fact legal to murder SINless people, I would think that this little tidbit would be included in that section, or indeed anywhere in the SR4 (or any edition) books.

[djinni]

I gave you quotes. That is what SR4 has to say about the consequences of being SINless. If it were in fact legal to murder SINless people, I would think that this little tidbit would be included in that section, or indeed anywhere in the SR4 (or any edition) books.

shadowrun doesn't deal with the how's and whys to what is and is not legal.
you dismiss one example that is contrary to your opinion but accept one example that is not....

[tisoz]

it is perfectly legal to shoot a SINless as there is no SIN to associate with the dead person no charges can be pressed etc... its a dead end.

Kind of like illegal aliens who have no SSN. Perfectly legal to shoot them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Wolf and Raven is the first example I would give off the top of my head. It references a young buy who was killed, the Lone Star Officer is quoted as saying "What investigation. No SIN, so it's not a murder."

I think I would like to see the quote and context. I could see Lone Star not considering it a crime against one of their Contracted, hence no investigation, because there was no SIN.

[stevebugge]

Under UCAS law Homicide is probably still illegal regardless of the SIN status of the victim, it's just that the response to a dead SINless Squatter in the Barrens is likely to be much smaller than the response to a dead SINner in a AA neighborhood. The amount of resources the Star would allocate towards identifying a SINless body and investigating any suspicious circumstances would be much lower than if the body had a SIN. It's unlikely that if a LoneStar employee shot a SINless person there would be much of an inquiry or disciplinary action taken (except possibly a payroll deduction to cover frivolously expended ammunition) unless a rival happened to film it for use in a negative PR campign to try to dislodge the Star from a lucrative contract, then the offending employee would be very publically disciplined. I don't think the various references to the lack of rights the SINless have is as much suggesting that it's legal to kill them or that laws have significantly changed so much as it is alluding to the fact that enforcement of laws and the workings of the criminal justices system are more selective and more focused on customer satisfaction than justice.

[Fortune]

you dismiss one example that is contrary to your opinion ...

The only example I dismissed is a quote from a novel that basically amounts to shadowtalk, as it is spoken in-character by a person with dubious motivations and associations (a Lone Star cop).

There is a section in the SR4 core rulebook entitled 'SINless Consequences'. It is reasonable to assume that if they had less rights in regards to being killed than normal animals (who at least have to be in season, and for whom a license is required to hunt), it would be hinted at in some manner, if not spelled out plainly.