Bad boys & the Star, watcha gonna do when sheriff john brown come for you? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Fortune]

Under UCAS law Homicide is probably still illegal regardless of the SIN status of the victim, it's just that the response to a dead SINless Squatter in the Barrens is likely to be much smaller than the response to a dead SINner in a AA neighborhood. The amount of resources the Star would allocate towards identifying a SINless body and investigating any suspicious circumstances would be much lower than if the body had a SIN.

Undeniably. I just take exception to the statement that it is legal to kill SINless.

[djinni]

Undeniably. I just take exception to the statement that it is legal to kill SINless.

the wording of the law would be written with citizens in mind and likely to be written as individual with citizen identification number tagged. if your world is less dystopian then your laws would be written appropriately

[tisoz]

There is a section in the SR4 core rulebook entitled 'SINless Consequences'. It is reasonable to assume that if they had less rights in regards to being killed than normal animals (who at least have to be in season, and for whom a license is required to hunt), it would be hinted at in some manner, if not spelled out plainly.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) But see, there are are seasons for animals so that they are not hunted during breeding season for conservations sake. SINless are vermin that breed year round and they need eradicated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Fortune]

the wording of the law would be written with citizens in mind and likely to be written as individual with citizen identification number tagged. if your world is less dystopian then your laws would be written appropriately

Please read the section in question. There are plenty of reasons for a person to be SINless, even legitimate ones. But even if the Law was written with only citizens in mind (can you give me a real life example of this phenomenon?), we have the following ...

Individuals residing in the UCAS without a SIN are considered “probationary citizens,� ...

Followed by ...

Not every nation in the world uses SINs—most do, but they may name them differently (for game purposes, however, we use SIN as the default term).

Which means, by your logic, that it is perfectly fine with everyone concerned if every single citizen of those counties that do not use SINs (or their equivalent) was murdered indiscriminately. Every visitor from such a country could be met at the airport and gunned down with no consequences. Nobody would care, right? That's just dumb! But even if we stretch that far, why hasn't it happened already? Why hasn't some Corp sent in their Desert Wars vets for some off-season training and wiped out the population, then moved in on the land?

[stevebugge]

the wording of the law would be written with citizens in mind and likely to be written as individual with citizen identification number tagged. if your world is less dystopian then your laws would be written appropriately

Actually if you want a really dystopian world, there would be laws regulating almost everything. This gives the powers that be the ability to micromanage anything they want. The selective and arbitrary application of those laws can make for a very frightening world.

[stevebugge]

Not having a SIN makes you a second class citizen, not a non-person tha can be killed on a whim. Not having a SIN probably doesn't mean that you get out of paying taxes either. Not having a SIN probably means that you can't do things like:

Get a Loan
Open a Bank Account
Get a Drivers, Gun, or Professional Lisence
Go to a public school
File a Lawsuit
Get Social Service benefits from a Goverment agency (most of the time)
Trade Stock
Vote
Be Selected for Jury Duty

[djinni]

Please read the section in question. There are plenty of reasons for a person to be SINless, even legitimate ones. But even if the Law was written with only citizens in mind (can you give me a real life example of this phenomenon?), we have the following ...

be american...go to mexico, there's your real life example

Which means, by your logic, that it is perfectly fine with everyone concerned if every single citizen of those counties that do not use SINs (or their equivalent) was murdered indiscriminately. Every visitor from such a country could be met at the airport and gunned down with no consequences. Nobody would care, right? That's just dumb! But even if we stretch that far, why hasn't it happened already? Why hasn't some Corp sent in their Desert Wars vets for some off-season training and wiped out the population, then moved in on the land?

think a little bit about what you just said then get back to me. or see the above statement.

[Fortune]

think a little bit about what you just said then get back to me. or see the above statement.

You are free to play anyway you like. I am talking canon though. I have provided a fair number of quotes to back up my position. You have supplied nothing but conjecture. Let's see the quote that states that killing SINless is totally legal. The book says that most Shadowrun characters are SINless, so one would think something as important as every single SINner has the right to shoot them on sight with no questions asked and no consequences afterward would be addressed somewhere. It is not, because that just isn't the case. SINless (at least in the UCAS) are considered 'probationary citizens'. There is no official and legal open season on SINless.

[djinni]

You are free to pay anyway you like. I am talking canon though. I have provided a fair number of quotes to back up my position. You have supplied nothing but conjecture. Let's see the quote that states that killing SINless is totally legal. The book says that most Shadowrun characters are SINless, so one would think something as important as every single SINner has the right to shoot them on sight with no questions asked and no consequences afterward would be addressed somewhere. It is not, because that just isn't the case. SINless (at least in the UCAS) are considered 'probationary citizens'. There is no official and legal open season on SINless.

my response was because you don't know anything about international travel.
I'm basing it on the descriptions since there isn't any loaws written for shadowrun universe
you want to talk canon however you are making assumptions and refuse to show me a law written for shadowrun. we'll continue this way no matter what... i have better things to do

[Fortune]

my response was because you don't know anything about international travel.

If you say so, but thanks for the insult.

I might say the very same about you, if you think that Americans have absolutely no rights whatsoever in Mexico. (Been there ... done that).

I'm out. I have backed up my point with canon quotes, while you have done nothing of the sort. Have a nice day.

[Juggy#3]

A lot of you seem to be equating a SIN with an SSN for the purposes of what it does; from what I can understand, it's not even close. Without an SSN, you're still considered a citizen and have a full citizens rights. Without a SIN, *they can't even prove your exist*. You have extremely limited, if any, rights and most people will not care what happens to you. You can't get a job, legally live anywhere, ride a bus, or even buy a hamburger at the fast food joint down the street without a SIN.

While I doubt that it's technically "legal" to just shoot a SINless person if your another citizen, I have no doubts that any Lone Star officer in the UCAS could shoot any SINless person for just about any reason and get away with it scott-free. Remeber, "few to no civil rights", *especially* if that SINless person was a metahuman or Awakened (both of which, while not techinically making you have less rights, do make the normal people tend to care a whole lot less about what happens to you).

Look at it like this: In 1920, how much trouble would a cop have gotten into for shooting a poor black person that was suspected of assaulting an average white citizen?

[stevebugge]

A lot of you seem to be equating a SIN with an SSN for the purposes of what it does; from what I can understand, it's not even close. Without an SSN, you're still considered a citizen and have a full citizens rights. Without a SIN, *they can't even prove your exist*. You have extremely limited, if any, rights and most people will not care what happens to you. You can't get a job, legally live anywhere, ride a bus, or even buy a hamburger at the fast food joint down the street without a SIN.

While I doubt that it's technically "legal" to just shoot a SINless person if your another citizen, I have no doubts that any Lone Star officer in the UCAS could shoot any SINless person for just about any reason and get away with it scott-free. Remeber, "few to no civil rights", *especially* if that SINless person was a metahuman or Awakened (both of which, while not techinically making you have less rights, do make the normal people tend to care a whole lot less about what happens to you).

Look at it like this: In 1920, how much trouble would a cop have gotten into for shooting a poor black person that was suspected of assaulting an average white citizen?

That's actually more or less the interpretation most of us have of it, though in actuality a SIN basically is an SSN only at an international level. Yhe issue has been the suggestion that Killing a SINless person is Legal in the same sense that breathing air is legal. Sure if a Lonestar Cop shoots a poor SINless Squatter in the barrens he's not going to get in trouble for it, but there will at least be a pretense of an inquiry in to why, if it was ever reported. The Cops Partner would back him up, his Commanding Officer would say "looks like it's justified" and everyone's happy except the squatter, who's dead and can't complain. Throw a news camera in the mix catching the officer doing it followed by a public outcry that threatens their city contract and the whole scenario changes. Instead of looking the other way the Star would happily sacrifice their "Rogue Cop" in a very public show trial to show that they were very serious about safeguarding all the citizens and residents of the City.

[Juggy#3]

That's actually more or less the interpretation most of us have of it, though in actuality a SIN basically is an SSN only at an international level. Yhe issue has been the suggestion that Killing a SINless person is Legal in the same sense that breathing air is legal. Sure if a Lonestar Cop shoots a poor SINless Squatter in the barrens he's not going to get in trouble for it, but there will at least be a pretense of an inquiry in to why, if it was ever reported. The Cops Partner would back him up, his Commanding Officer would say "looks like it's justified" and everyone's happy except the squatter, who's dead and can't complain. Throw a news camera in the mix catching the officer doing it followed by a public outcry that threatens their city contract and the whole scenario changes. Instead of looking the other way the Star would happily sacrifice their "Rogue Cop" in a very public show trial to show that they were very serious about safeguarding all the citizens and residents of the City.

A SIN is like an SSN on crack, basically. An SSN only effects certain parts of your life--a SIN effect's basically all of them. It's much more far-reaching and all-encompassing than an SSN.

And as far as sacrificing their rogue cop to show that they protect ALL the citizens and residents of the city--that's fine, if you're a citizen or a legal resident. If your SINless, you are neither. You're not a citizen, and you can't live anywhere without being a squatter or using fake ID, which is illegal in itself, so you're not a legal resident, either.

Most of the time those things get ignored, I'll bet, simply due to the sheer number of the SINless popupation, the likelyhood of a public outcry if they started a mass SINless eviction/slaughter/whatever, etc.

Basically, it seems the SINless exist in a sort of legal gray area where the law is allowed to do pretty much whatever they want to them...up to a point. I really wouldn't be surprised if a significant number of Lone Star officers just arrested any suspected SINless criminal, drove them somewhere disserted, shot them in the back of the head, and told anybody who asked that they "got away".

Nobody is gonna raise any great fuss about "abuses" against a number of people that are not citizens, have almost no rights, and are generally considered criminals as a matter of course, anyway.

[djinni]

Throw a news camera in the mix catching the officer doing it followed by a public outcry that threatens their city contract and the whole scenario changes. Instead of looking the other way the Star would happily sacrifice their "Rogue Cop" in a very public show trial to show that they were very serious about safeguarding all the citizens and residents of the City.

but that has nothing to do with whether or not he had a SIN, and whether or not it was actually legal. that's media attention...
and with media attention you have to get enough people together that care enough to put the political pressure on the people in office. because those people get voted in by the voters...
in the shadowrun world, they might not even have elections where the street voters count. the only players are the corporations, they are the ones that get people elected. so if the corp doesn't care what happeend to some SINless guy then the media won't show it, because they get paid not to.

yeah juggy paying certified cred is like using a credit card now adays, you don't even have to sign for something less than $20, they don't ask for ID unless you are buying something expensive.

[Ravor]

And especially in the fragged up Sixth World the media attention could be focused on how effective and brutal Lonestar is in protecting honest Citizens against the SINless masses for a posisitive story, remember, illegal too-the-death bloodsports are a huge hit amonst the masses, and "News Outlets" are even more whorelike in the Sixth World then they are today.

[stevebugge]

And especially in the fragged up Sixth World the media attention could be focused on how effective and brutal Lonestar is in protecting honest Citizens against the SINless masses for a posisitive story, remember, illegal too-the-death bloodsports are a huge hit amonst the masses, and "News Outlets" are even more whorelike in the Sixth World then they are today.

How it played would really depend on just who's media caught it. Ares owns media companies in addition to owning Knight Errant and Weapons World (and a whole lot of other things). If they got footage of Lone Star doing something questionable they certainly would use it to make them look bad, it just might help them pick up a new city contract for KE. Now if it was KE who did the exact same thing it would be covered in a completely different way, or ignored altogether.

Also you'd be suprised just what you can't do today without a SSN. It's the ID that links you to your credit rating among other things and with no credit rating you are very limited in your financial, employment, and housing options already. The SIN is just taking that and extending it for another 65 years of automation and datamining.

[sungun]

you all keep discussing the mage and his/her SIN. what about the victim and location and the state of the victim's SIN? the way i see it, if this happened to some SINless nobody in a dive in the barrens, the cops wouldn't even show up for the call. if it happened to some typical SINer, the cops would probably show up, arrest the mage if he's around, take a report if he's not. if you're talking about some middle manager for a megacorp that got mindprobed at some VIP hotspot downtown, the cops might show up and actually open an investigation.

like today. if my beater car gets stolen from outside my ghetto warehouse space, the cops might show up a while later and take a report. if the car happens to show up somewhere, they'll call me. but if a senator's lambirginie gets stolen from the circular drive outside his mansion, there's going to be some real action taken.

this would also affect legal proceedings. if someone rich and powerful is mad, the lawyers will walk in and make sure that the law does all the damage it can. but don't forget that shadowrunners have their own methods for dealing with the law. maybe the team has a good contact in the star. or maybe the team scrambles while the mage is on his way to lock up, intercepting the cops and taking their friend back.

also, from the description of mindprobe from sr4, "The target is aware of the probing, though they may not know the source of the spell." So if your mage was discreet, it could be pretty easy in a crowded bar to probe someone's mind without them having any idea who was doing it.