Fly Hack question Options

[Dashifen]

I ran out of quote blocks (interesting, that) and I couldn't post it all at once. Here's the rest:

After it copies our 4 active programs it becomes:

Garbageman: Pilot 3, Firewall 3?, Response 2 (4 programs> system = -1) and has the programs:
browse 3
Sniffer 3
edit 3
analyze 3

Again, looks good to me.

I guess our hacker shoud load up Command, Attack, and Armor also..that only brings his total programs up to 7 so he still is only at -1 response or 3.

Now garbageman the IC and the hacker are all on the same node but it doesnt effect the systems reponse because the hacker is running off of the system, so that only leaves 2 other programs which is less than the system of 3. But if there was another ic program or our hacker loaded another agent it would make the whole system drop to response 3, possably alerting the system but forget that...

Here's where things get a little screwy. Your Agent is currently attached to your personal (judging by your tally of programs listed about (7: Command, Attack, Armor, Browse, Sniffer, Edit, Analyze). It's arguable that you should be at 8, which is the program of your Agent itself. Meanwhile, the system is running only its IC an the IC's payload.

Now, according to the FAQ you get this:

Do all the programs loaded into an agent affect the Response of your commlink if the commlink is running the agent?

Only if the agent is using those programs at the same time as the hacker.

That means if your Hacker is not intending to use Browse, Sniffer, Edit, and Anlayze (the four programs that are the Agent's payload) then these don't have to count against your limit. That would mean the hacker is only running Command, Attack, Armor and the Agent. That's still 4 which still reduces your Response (and therefore System) by 1 and reduces the effectiveness, overall, of your programs. Of course, if you unload the Agent into the system, then you'd no longer be managing that program and you'd be at three proggies, which is less than your response and everything is good to go. Incidentally, you still might want to be running Stealth at this point since IC right now only needs 1 success to find you if it's on patrol.

[...]
-Does Firewall and system of an agent/sprite get limited by the node's system rating?
-If Hacker unloads, browse, sniffer, edit, and analyze that means the agent can not longer tap into those programs right?
-It doesnt matter what node your agent is in he always has access to the programs you have loaded up?
-Wait how does that work when you leave an agent online and you log off ?? Shouldnt he lose all of his programs?
-Agents that you unload onto a system, those are actually copies of the main agent program right? It doesnt matter if they get destroyed or whatever? Wouldnt it be stupid to leave them behind, couldnt they be used to track you down or is that only when you are online?

1. I've always assumed this: the system is limited by the response of the Agent, which is, in turn, equal to the response of the node on which the Agent is running. However, since the FAQ has told us that Firewall is not a program that is limited by the system of a device, I assume that Firewall is also a program that is not limited by the System (Pilot) of an Agent. Thus, an Agents System and Response may fluctuate during a hack, but it's Firewall will remain the same.
   
   
2. Nope. If they're loaded into the Agents payload (see p. 228, SR4) then the Agent can maintain the programs itself and the hacker doesn't need to run them at all unless she wants to use their capabilities as well. This was clarified in the FAQ (quoted above).
   
   
3. I'd only let the Agent swap programs for those that the Hacker is running if that Agent is still being used as a part of the Hacker's persona. If the Agent has been unloaded into a separate node, then it won't be able to as easily use the Hacker's programs.
   
   
4. See above answers ... if you log off and leave an active agent online, you better have given it copies of your programs to run as its payload. If you didn't, then it's just an agent with its Pilot rating and it's probably going to be toast.
   
   
5. That depends on the GM, probably. In my games you can't just spew forth copies of the same agent software. If you send your agent out in the greater universe of the Matrix then you can't whip up another Agent and send it out again to do something else. In other words, each Agent program you have represents a specific and unique entity that you can use. 'Course, if you crack the Agent program (those rules are also on p. 228) you could then make copies of it which would be independent Agents.
   
   As for getting crashed, I've personally always run it that if an Agent gets crashed on a different system, the Hacker has to go get it if she wants to use it again. That's my interpretation of the rules, however, and we've had some 15+ page threads on that topic alone. Also, I use glitches by Agents in cybercombat to reduce it's rating and (similar to the new Armor degradation rules in Arsenal, I suppose) so that Agents aren't indestructible and sometimes someone needs to buy new ones.
   
   If you leave them behind and log off, then they're acting independently and there's no way to use Track to find the Hacker. However, nasty GMs might use other system tricks to figure out what account loaded the Agent onto a node. That's why a quick Spoof of the datatrail (p. 224) is sometimes nice or even an Edit test to change the logs on the system (which could (should) be protected by said system).

Next up are drones.....the stats of a Lonestar I-ball are:
Pilot 3, body 1, armor 0, sensor 2....these are stats for moving around and controlling it...
Inside the drones node though it would look like........
Pilot 3, System 3, ......I dont see where it tells their Response or Firewall?? Just make it across the board in general?

Mainly I just need to know where to get response and firewall stats for drones. The rest works exactly like above?

Drones have device ratings listed on page 214. Normal vehicles and drones (probably like the iBall) have a device rating of 3 giving them 3's across the board. Security drones have a device rating of 4, and military-grade drones have a 5. All of this, however, could be customizable depending on the GM. I allow customization of commlinks and devices and whatnot at character generation provided the character has the appropriate skills needed to do so. Other GMs may not.

[Abbandon]

@nightwalker:
Everything you said sounds great except the part about agents and their payloads. pg228 says the agent takes COPIES of the persona's programs. Just like the actual agent is only a copy of the agent program on your commlink. If you dont crack your agent and you send him off to another node and he gets geeked are you out your 10k R4 agent?

Also in rereading that section about the payloads I misunderstood something. I thought the programs had to be active on the persona in order for them to use it but they have to be active on the agent. Meaning he can not take copies of all your programs and switch them out as he needs them.

@Dashifen
Forgot about stealth. Was worried more about matrix stats than skill usage.

Oh that reminds me. Why do I have to be getting tracked in order to be running spoof(redirect)? You dont ever even know when you are being tracked. The hacker is just blasting the line with static and fake signals and stuff INCASE somebody is trying to track him. If nobody is tracking him then its just noise nobody heres.

Maybe I misread something or got it mixed up but I thought redirect's increased the threshold for systems to find you during intrusion tests?

[Nightwalker450]

If the agent gets geeked then yep you're out the cash or time spent in getting him. As Dashifen said, you might be able to return to the system and pick up the pieces and repair, but thats up to GM. I'd think if its loaded on a system other than your own, as soon as he's crashed the systems going to delete the pieces. Or they'll send it off to their Network spider so he can realign it, and you'll be fighting your own agent next time you return to the system.

Agents/IC work best as assistants, because they will only follow the orders given them (they don't think on their own). So if you sent him to delete files and alter files, if he's attacked he might just try and finish what he was doing as fast as it can, instead of defending/fleeing. Also if you leave them they are very vulnerable, unless they are constantly in contact with you, and then you're very vulnerable. Sprites on the other hand (Go Techno's!) can only be spoofed or controlled by another sprite or Technomancer, and since they are considered (lesser) AI's, they have emotions/reactions to whats going on around them more than agents.

[Abbandon]

Ok this is to both of you guys. If your in cybercombat and the opponent attacks your programs in an effort to crash them then would those permanently be gone too??

I guess im in the middle of the road heh. I dont believe you can just copy/paste your programs infinitely but I also dont think they are one off's. I think when you upload programs and agents then you are making copies, even if those programs get trashed you still have the originals on your commlink for the next time.

Hmmm in the crashing OS segment it says agents can not be crashed. On the other hand it suggest programs can be rebooted in rating combat turns... thats probably what I would allow for agents to.

Guess that one will have to wait for Unwired lol. Aren't agents fairly easy to get killed? 10k a whack is pretty damn expensive.

[Dashifen]

Everything you said sounds great except the part about agents and their payloads. pg228 says the agent takes COPIES of the persona's programs. Just like the actual agent is only a copy of the agent program on your commlink. If you dont crack your agent and you send him off to another node and he gets geeked are you out your 10k R4 agent?

I don't consider this to be a copy with respect to the rules for cracking software but rather a copy meaning that an Agent can use the programs of the person who owns that Agent. I wouldn't, for example, let an Agent pop onto a node and start using its programs. In my games, if you send your agent out as a separate, independent icon and it gets crashed then you are out a 10k Agent unless you go collect it from the node. You could, however, give instructions to your Agent to go to a specific "safe" node or something redirecting traces as necessary along the way rather than engaging in combat or other tricks to try and keep your agents safe.

I also degrade the rating of agents if they roll glitches or critical glitches in cybercombat, so I think I'm a little more nasty with these little toys than the average GM. But it does (a) keep the game interesting and (b) helps to curb obnoxious use of Agents if they're in danger when you do so.

Also in rereading that section about the payloads I misunderstood something. I thought the programs had to be active on the persona in order for them to use it but they have to be active on the agent. Meaning he can not take copies of all your programs and switch them out as he needs them.

Not necessarily. Any agent can operate in one of two ways: (1) as a part of your persona or (2) unloaded form your persona as an independent icon. This is mentioned in the second column of page 227 in SR4.

When operating as a part of your persona, the agent can use any program that you're currently running and swap its payload out for those programs as necessary. The hacker can even stop using a program that the Agent is using to help reduce the load on their commlink, according to the FAQ:

Do all the programs loaded into an agent affect the Response of your commlink if the commlink is running the agent?
Only if the agent is using those programs at the same time as the hacker.

This lets us know that the hacker can stop using a program that's loaded into an Agent's payload and help to reduce the load on his commlink. In other words, an Agent running in your persona is more flexible than an agent running as an independent icon because it can access the programs that are active on the Hacker's commlink. Granted, swapping and running and deactivating software takes actions, so it might be dangerous and/or time consuming to change around an agent's payload during cybercombat, for example, but under other situations, things could move very quickly.

However, if the Agent is operating as an independent agent, then in order to swap out programs on it's own, they must be available to it online:

Can agents load and unload new programs by themselves?
Yes, if their orders call for it. The programs must be available for them online.

A GM could rule that some (or all) of the Common Use programs might, thus, be available online for an Agent to use. If I can use Google Docs online now, I have to assume that there might be Edit programs freely available for use someone on the Matrix for an Agent to tap into if it needs to, but if it's on a secure node of some kind, that may not be the case. It'd be less likely to encounter Hacking programs available, but other GMs may feel differently than I.

[Dashifen]

Ok this is to both of you guys. If your in cybercombat and the opponent attacks your programs in an effort to crash them then would those permanently be gone too??

No. Crashing a program is the same as deactivating it, in my opinion. If you need that program back again, then you could reload it with a complex action, but that would take a whole initiative pass away. It's a great tactic, though, for players and GMs alike. I love watching a hacker's face as they get jumped by two IC. One which starts to crash his Armor program and the other starts whaling on him with Attack/Blackhammer/Blackout depending on the situation.

I think when you upload programs and agents then you are making copies, even if those programs get trashed you still have the originals on your commlink for the next time.

And that's totally cool, but I prefer to think of them more like drones. If you send a drone off to do surveillance and someone else nicks it, you're out all the cash you invested in that drone. Hell, in my game, the current Technomancer had a doberman drone loaded with a weapon that he hid and placed to watch an area in Hong Kong. He never had the chance to return and get the drone before they had to run away from the authorities and thus he lost his drone. Sucks, but that's life in the Shadows. Agents are similar to Matrix Drones, to stretch an analogy, and I like to make sure that they're also not an investment that a character makes at generation and then never has to worry about ever again.

Hmmm in the crashing OS segment it says agents can not be crashed.

When it says Agents can't be crashed, they mean you cannot use a "Crash Program/OS" action to take them out, you actually have to defeat them in cybercombat instead.

On the other hand it suggest programs can be rebooted in rating combat turns... thats probably what I would allow for agents to.

The rebooting in System combat turns is for crashing OS software, not normal programs. You can restart normal programs in 1 complex action by running them again just like normal. 'Course, if you want Agents to take longer to reboot, that's cool, too.

Aren't agents fairly easy to get killed? 10k a whack is pretty damn expensive.

Depends on the Agent. A good rating 6 Agent with high programs is going to be as difficult (or perhaps more difficult) to defeat than a hacker.

[Nightwalker450]

They wouldn't be gone, just crashed. So it would take you a complex action to reload them. So he would drop your program, then get a free pass as you are spending it reloading. (Crash the Bio-Feedback Filter, or armor). For the purposes of agents, I would probably allow 1 copied program for an agent to carry. But multiple agents would each need a different program. Anything to inhibit agent armies. It only takes a few hours to rip a copy anyways, its just prep time, and not done on the fly. Crashing an Agent is effectively cybercombat, they can be crashed, but they aren't crashed like you would a standard program.

The problem with rebooting is something has to initialize it, and since the agent is on someone else's system, they aren't going to reboot it for you, but otherwise since an agent is a system/pilot it would take rating combat turns to reboot.

10k for an agent, everyone has their expensive loss.. 10k is minimum for a weapon foci, drones run about half, but when you load them with sensors weapons, and ammunition they get up there and they can be shot to pieces. Overall your hacker has the least amount of problems with cash once you have your hacking/common use programs. So don't complain too loudly especially to the mage who spends I think 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per rating to bind a spirit? And thats not even a guaranteed success.

[Nightwalker450]

Hey dashifen (and any other Matrix Savvy), since we're trading Matrix know-how... How does this sound?

Ok as my teams Hacker (Technomancer), I have already set up back doors into two members commlinks. I've finally come to the point where I'm wanting to set up a sniffer program on the team's face's commlink. He knows more of what he's doing. And I'm not going to take chances of it failing (my technomancer acted erratically last time, and unsure as to the rest of the groups interpretation of it).

Now my question is once I get in there, should I be able to set up a sniffer program to include myself in all his communications, without having to be in the node myself to maintain it? According to BBB this is quite possible. Then to do so, I thread myself the wonder of Sniffer programs (Rating 10), bring along a sprite to assist (Rating 5 or 6..), and set it up. 10+4+5, 19 dice to do this. And I plan on using edge to reroll the misses. This should set up sufficient amount of hits, that it will take months before this sniffer is found.

Am I correct in this? I also plan on doing similar to one of the others commlinks (the medic's), though I won't be pushing quite the limits with it (though if I've already got them threaded, why not...)

Once the sniffer is in place I shouldn't have to sustain it anymore... The sniffer is used to set up taps, it doesn't represent the tap itself right?

[Dashifen]

You can't thread programs, only complex forms. However, I would argue that a tap is a "sustained" action, in that if you stop tapping someone's traffic you've got to reroll later if you want to start up again. If you want the traffic to be recorded to some form of backup device, then you're probably better of registering a data sprite and letting it handle things for you. 'Course, as a GM, I'd have that spirte screw around a little bit on the target's commlink after some time (mischievous little buggers do get bored after all).

[Tiger Eyes]

I don't see how you could use a sniffer program to set up a tap, since it allows you to intercept wireless communications, ie., sniff them out of the airwaves, not directly from the commlink. And beyond that, I agree with Dashifen, that your complex form requires you to be there to use it.

The thing to do is register a Courier Sprite. Hack the comlink in question and install said sprite on commlink, have it use it's Cookie Power. If you've registered the sprite, you can keep it there indefinately, assuming the face never succeeds on a Matrix Perception (4) test (rolling Computer+Analyze). If the face doesn't have a computer skill, or even if he does and doesn't think to look, then, well, he'll never notice, will he? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The cookie power allows the sprite to log details, but simply having the sprite there allows you to listen in on any communications, since you have a mental link with your sprite as long as you're online. So no tell-tale transmissions leaving the face's commlink, you can just mentally communicate with your sprite and get all the info... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Nightwalker450]

To eavesdrop, make a Hacking + Sniffer Test. The hits you score are the threshold for anyone to detect your tap with a Matrix Perception Test. Taps of this nature are difficult to detect. In order for someone to detect interception of his wired traffic, he must make a Matrix Perception Test in the specific node on which the Sniffer program is running.

This is what I'm thinking of doing. But it does look like I would have to stay in the node myself as well since the program is running there. I guess compiling a courier sprite and having it cookie would work as well, but I'm trying to think of ways that it can work for long term and not be detected very easily. As well cookie doesn't give details as to the information, it just tells what nodes it interacts with. So I will need a sniffer in order to do this. Basically I'm wanting a feed of details of every communication coming in or out of the commlink. I could maintain a link with the node so that I can keep tabs on it, working in multiple nodes...

It does look like the courier doesn't need to remain there in order to use Cookie power though, but it isn't a live feed, it would be something I'd have to redo constantly in order to get information, and keep it updated.

[Tiger Eyes]

Ah, yes, I see that paragraph. But: "Note that this action only aplies to traffic passing through a wired medium; for wireless traffic, see Intercepting Wireless Signal, p 225." (SR4, 224)

So, I assumed that with a commlink, the communications would be wireless traffic. If you were doing this on a wired connection, I would say that your sniffer complex form could create a tap just like a sniffer program. But again, don't think that would work on a wireless commlink.

In our game, we say that anything your sprite overhears or sees, you can too, through your mental link. So leaving a sprite, with instructions to notify you if any communications began, would work... in our game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Nightwalker450]

The rest of the section talks specifically about setting it up on a persons commlink. Since this is one of the nodes the communications must pass through. Intermediate nodes could also be used of course, but with wireless usually those change frequently or are unused completely.

[Abbandon]

-Even if an agent/sprite was set to auto-sniff every "commcall" how would it relay that information back to the hacker? People would definately notice their commlink sending out messages. You could give the agent edit and make it make files for every commcall on the dude's commlink, then you could just go in through your backdoor and check the log every once and while?

-I dont see how you could hide a sprite/agent from the owner of a commlink. They have admin access so they should automatically see everything.

[Jhaiisiin]

You can reference real-world workings of programs for an explanation there. A program can reside on your computer, eating up unused processing cycles, and then transmit it's information in with the "junk" information sent out over your comlink. Properly disguised, you'd never know anything was amiss unless you noticed an odd slowdown in performance somewhere. I would imagine SR4 programs aren't functionally different, just more complex.

[Ryu]

You need to constantly Sniff for traffic from the target comlink. Your problem is that the sniffing agent will lock onto the next connection the target makes. If he has multiple connections, the agent will be busy streaming all to file. You somehow need to keep the agents node close to the target, so it is in interception range. Your comlink will not qualify. Also note that the same trick pulled on you would give away what you do - because of your data streams.

[Abbandon]

Sorry guys I want to back track for a second!!! I kinda lost focus on this question and let it drop but now I remember why i was asking.

-What information can you derive from just looking at a node or a encrypted node??

I walk into a bar with like 30 people inside. I grab a drink walk over to a booth and have a seat and flip open my commlink and begin scanning for nodes. I get a list of like thousands of nodes, some hidden. Do I see a list of commlinks with people's names, a list of appliances, a list of security camera's with positions marked??

Hmmm this makes me think of subscriptions. If a bar has 10 security camera's and they are all subscribed to the barkeepers commlink I would only see that one single node (the barkeepers commlink) right? I wouldnt see a node for each of the 10 camera's??

If my cyberarm is subscribed to my commlink then nobody would find my cyberarm in a scan they would just see my commlink?

However....if they decrypt my commlink and sniff it then they can see things subscribed to my commlink and be lead right to my cyberarm or the sec camera's and they could then view the sec camera footage or begin hacking my cyberarm.

Theres no way in hell I would have wireless turned on in my cyberarm im just giving examples heh. Going back to the bar... 10 camera's, 1000 camera's that could all be set up to count as a single subscription right ?? Im just trying to familiarize myself with what people actually see when they perform scans. They would never see toasters and refridgerators and all the little knick knacks people got on, they would only see the nodes those things are subscribed to. Which only leaves the question of what information is on those nodes. If i know the bartenders name is Freddy and I have a node with the name Fred Duponte and no other nodes with Fred on it. Then thats probably his.

Ok hidden nodes dont broadcast SIN info, which is why the law makes it mandatory that you dont go hidden. So hidden nodes would have no info on them. So even if someone locates a hidden node they wont know who's node it is until they hack it.... That makes it seem very unlikely that any hacker would try to hack into a hidden node unless there was only one around. Otherwise you would never know who you were hacking. The lowly scum shadowrunner or some whiz corp exec with 10 layers of black IC.

Active PAN w/ encryption = all info available
Passive PAN w/ encryption = all sin info (no public profile)
Hidden PAN w/ encryption = no info, cross your fingers and take a shot in the dark at which hidden node is the one you want.

Encryption wouldnt matter at this point. If you have your commlink encrypted it just means people can't listen in on your conversations or see INSIDE your commlink. It doesnt change what information is being broadcast by your PAN. Otherwise the law would be on your ass just like if you were hidden.

I guess if you narrowed it down to 10 hidden nodes you could decrypt and sniffer, or decrpyt and analyze the signals coming from the node to get information? Would that just give you an Access ID. I guess then you could do a computer + browse test with a massive bonus to match the access ID with a name..? But what if the target node was using a spoofed ID? You could grab a picture of the person off the net probably but then you would have to visually scan the entire room to make sure that person is or is not there and that would be impossable in some places....

Anybody wanna comment on this? How do you explain enemy or player hackers knowing which hidden nodes to hack if there are more than one?? How can they possably identify the right node?? I seriously doubt people are just going to randomly start hacking every hidden node until they get to the right one??

[Dashifen]

What information can you derive from just looking at a node or a encrypted node??

If it's a non-encrypted node, the information depends on the current mode of the device: active, passive, or hidden. Active and passive nodes will be reasonably easy to notice and find. Active ones might be broadcasting a general profile (like Facebook or MySpace sort of information) for commlinks, devices will probably tell you want they are and, if there's any public functionality (like the iMenu at the table where you sat down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) then you might find instructions and/or other interface hints. Passive nodes would be there but probably not respond to public connections with too much (or maybe any) information. Hidden nodes wouldn't be there at all without a more intensive scan (hence the 15+ threshold to find them).

If the node is encrypted, you would still get information from active nodes, but it would be encrypted and, thus, unhelpful until you decrypted it.

[...] If a bar has 10 security camera's and they are all subscribed to the barkeepers commlink I would only see that one single node (the barkeepers commlink) right? I wouldnt see a node for each of the 10 camera's??

Again, depends on the mode of the cameras. I'd think that the average camera would be passive or hidden. If the former, then you'd see their node and if the latter, the node wouldn't pop up unless you specifically made an effort to find them. Plus, depending on the set up, cameras might not be wireless and, instead, wired directly to the security room or something. There's pretty much no reason to make them wireless because it only creates a weakness. 'Course, it might be useful to give them a skinlink for maintenance purposes (touch the camera, and you can interface with it for diagnostic purposes) but that's a little obvious if you're not careful.

If my cyberarm is subscribed to my commlink then nobody would find my cyberarm in a scan they would just see my commlink?

Probably not, unless your Cyberarm is operating with a wireless connection to your commlink. More likely, your Cyberarm has a direct neural interface wired within the body and then to a datajack which can be plugged into your commlink. With that setup, you could disable the wireless on your Cyberarm and they wouldn't be able to find it without breaking into your PAN.

However....if they decrypt my commlink and sniff it then they can see things subscribed to my commlink and be lead right to my cyberarm or the sec camera's and they could then view the sec camera footage or begin hacking my cyberarm. Theres no way in hell I would have wireless turned on in my cyberarm im just giving examples heh.

If they break into your PAN (detect, decrypt, and hack your commlink, in other words) and then analyze it (not sniff it), then they could potentially see what is subscribed to your commlink, yes. What they do with that information is up to them. I like moving the smart gun targeting reticule to the left by a meter or so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

The big reason for wireless on cyberware is "fluff." For maintenance and other purposes, with a wireless interface to cyberware, then a street doc or cybertechnician won't have to cut you open to get diagnostic information on your 'ware. For a cyberarm it's even less important since it's on the outside of the body, but giving the cybertech the ability to diagnose a leaking internal air tank is probably handy rather than having them cut open you abdomen to notice that there's a bullet hole in your extra lung.

Going back to the bar... 10 camera's, 1000 camera's that could all be set up to count as a single subscription right ??

I wouldn't call them one subscription, but since the subscription list is essentially limitless, the result is the same: all the cameras can be subscribed. Plus, the drones chapter indicates that you can send single commands to groups of drones (or in this case, camera devices) and have them all respond, so you could definitely do this if you want to.

[...] Encryption wouldnt matter at this point. If you have your commlink encrypted it just means people can't listen in on your conversations or see INSIDE your commlink. It doesnt change what information is being broadcast by your PAN. Otherwise the law would be on your ass just like if you were hidden.

That's probably up to interpretation, but I wouldn't disagree with what you've said. I don't personally run it that way in my games, but I assume that the reason decryption is so easy is that the corps and governments have required backdoors in the encryption schemes. Hackers have learned of those backdoors and exploit them just as easily as law enforcement does. Thus, encryption isn't a concern to law enforcement -- they can just break it when they need to and the average SINner either doesn't know, doesn't care, or trusts the government/corporation to be acting appropriately. Shadowrunners, on the other hand, probably know better.

I guess if you narrowed it down to 10 hidden nodes you could decrypt and sniffer, or decrpyt and analyze the signals coming from the node to get information? Would that just give you an Access ID. I guess then you could do a computer + browse test with a massive bonus to match the access ID with a name..? But what if the target node was using a spoofed ID? You could grab a picture of the person off the net probably but then you would have to visually scan the entire room to make sure that person is or is not there and that would be impossable in some places....

Anybody wanna comment on this? How do you explain enemy or player hackers knowing which hidden nodes to hack if there are more than one?? How can they possably identify the right node?? I seriously doubt people are just going to randomly start hacking every hidden node until they get to the right one??

Personally, I think the threshold of 15+ you need to detect a wireless node indicates that all the work has been done to find the appropriate node. The program triangulates on areas where it can detect small amounts of traffic but not a node until it can hone in on the one you're looking for. If there's 100 hidden nodes in the area, especially if they're all clumped right around the target, increase the threshold to 20+ or maybe even 25+ and then you need some kind of super hacker (or assistance from sprites, teamworking Agents, etc.) to find your target without trying another angle.

To get an access ID you would need a successful Matrix Perception test on the target. If you haven't decrypted the target, then I wouldn't give you much information because even the access ID would be encrypted. Just like when you submit credit card information online today, all of the data transfered between your computer and the server is encrypted and the exchange of keys for that encryption happens first so that, for your session, the server knows who you are and what key to use for you. If the target was using a spoofed ID, then you'll still get an access ID, but it won't ever correlate to the target's actual identity. You could still use it to spoof commands to drones that he's controlling with that spoofed ID though.

[Abbandon]

If they break into your PAN (detect, decrypt, and hack your commlink, in other words) and then analyze it (not sniff it), then they could potentially see what is subscribed to your commlink, yes. What they do with that information is up to them. I like moving the smart gun targeting reticule to the left by a meter or so (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

Once you get to a node yes you can force your way in and risk the target becoming aware of your actions. But while you are still outside you can decrypt its ass and identify everything its is communicating with (cyberarms if they are set up that way, glasses, smartlink if its set up that way, earbuds, a trodenet, any other devices in that persons pan).

Hmmm I was thinking you could goto a commlink node see it talking to a hidden cyberarm and then slide over to it, bypassing the commlink node with the deadly IC, and start hacking the cyberarm directly. But that doesnt flow with the rules I dont think. I dont think you could sniffer PAN communications, I no longer think they would show up. They specifically say if you make a PAN a hacker has to go through the commlink first. Sniffer must only pick up other kind of signals like "phone calls". Kind of inconsistant. A signal transmission is a signal transmission whether its commlink to commlink or commlink to cyberarm but whatever.....I will let that go till unwired.



I wouldn't call them one subscription, but since the subscription list is essentially limitless, the result is the same: all the cameras can be subscribed. Plus, the drones chapter indicates that you can send single commands to groups of drones (or in this case, camera devices) and have them all respond, so you could definitely do this if you want to.

Hmmm I can't find that part about grouping things together into one subscription, I think it was in the part about rigging entire systems. But pg212 on linking and subscribing says exactly what I said above. You can make devices only talk to other devices. Nobody can hack stuff in a PAN until they go through the comm. They said you can't SNOOP things in a pan. That is very poorly worded. Did they mean Sniffer? I imagine so. I dont really agree with that. I dont see how a sniffer program could NOT see wireless transmissions between stuff in your PAN and the commlink. And by extension spoof commands to it without ever having to hack into the PAN's commlink....

But I accept that it works like that and doesnt effect me one way or another.



That's probably up to interpretation, but I wouldn't disagree with what you've said. I don't personally run it that way in my games, but I assume that the reason decryption is so easy is that the corps and governments have required backdoors in the encryption schemes. Hackers have learned of those backdoors and exploit them just as easily as law enforcement does. Thus, encryption isn't a concern to law enforcement -- they can just break it when they need to and the average SINner either doesn't know, doesn't care, or trusts the government/corporation to be acting appropriately. Shadowrunners, on the other hand, probably know better.

That would make every law enforcer on the street a compitent hacker. I seriously doubt that would be the case. But its a minor irrelevant point that we dont have to agree on =).


Hey does anyone know of a place to submit these questions so they can be answered in unwired.

[KCKitsune]

Hey does anyone know of a place to submit these questions so they can be answered in unwired.

I would think that if you sent an email to info@shadowrun4.com that they would forward the message to the proper location (if the info address is not right one already)

[Nightwalker450]

Because its on your PAN doesn't make it hack proof. The cyberarm is safe due to
1) Could be run wired (or skinlinked) to a commlink, no wireless signal.
2) Could be run neurally, no connection to anything. (Data jack usually for maintenance)
3) Cyberlimb Signal rating 0, you'll have to be sitting next to it in order to hack it.

If you get into the commlink you have access to his PAN, so its usually easier to go via this way then trying to hack while sitting next to him. Cyber sammy redlines his arm to destroy hacker nerd next to him...

As to nodes on a scan, pretty much anything public or private will show up, broadcasting whatever information they want. Some areas will require you to have specific information broadcasted, and you could be stopped for broadcasting too little. Cops probably just want some form of Encrypted SIN ID put out, they can then just copy it directly into their database to check, but other people won't have the decryption to break it (easily.. Fake ID's do exist, so someone's got the ability) Other people (facebookers, myspace people), will broadcast name, age, sexual preference, color of panties, and most soy beers they've drank before passing out and waking up next to a troll. Yeah there's the paranoid, and then there's those who tell you alot more than you want. It's the 15+ threshold that says you'll find the node you're looking for, when looking for hidden. Unless of course it doesn't exist, then you won't find it, but you searched real good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Abbandon]

"Because its on your PAN doesn't make it hack proof. The cyberarm is safe due to"

Your talking about in general right? As in somebody can hack your comm and get to the things on your pan. You are not saying that people can hack things on a PAN without going through the PAN's central node right? Cuz that contradicts pg212. If its on a pan its safe from hacks and "snooping" unless and until you go through a PAN's central node..

@everyone!! Please stop bringing up how to make cyber immune to hacking, thats not the issue. Never asked about it. I just used it as an example of something that somebody may have subscribed to their PAN(however unlikely and idiotic that may be)! Just replace all instances of cyber arm with glasses.

[Dashifen]

You're example and Nightwalker's response are both valid though.

Here's the text from p. 212 that I think you're focused on, Abbandon:

Now, just because all of your devices can talk to other devices doesn't mean that they will. For simplicity, privacy, and security, you may configure your devices so that they only interact with another specific device (usually your commlink, as your PAN's hub) or a specific network (your PAN). This prevents confusion between users (am I accessing my guncam or yours?) and also offers a degree of protection from snoopers and hackers. Rather than allowing any stranger access to all of your electronics, anyone that wants to interact with your PAN must connect to your commlink first.

That doesn't say that devices are invulnerable to hacking if they're a part of a user's PAN, only that if you want to access devices in a PAN, those devices can be ordered to refuse a connection unless it comes through the hub of the PAN, i.e. the owner's commlink. However, those devices might still be hacked since that represents an illegitimate way of gaining access.

Thus, if someone has their glasses connected to their PAN, they can tell the glasses that they don't want any information to be displayed unless it comes through their commlink. Then, the commlink mode and software can help to limit the AR information that the glasses would make available to the user. But, if someone hacks the glasses, then I'd allow all sorts of stuff to be placed in the user's filed of vision.

To avoid this, the glasses might be skin linked or might only have a signal of zero or they could be wired into the user's commlink directly. These three security measures would help to make the glasses far more secure than even a PAN can do.

[Ryu]

"Rather than allowing any stranger access to all of your electronics, anyone that wants to interact with your PAN must connect to your commlink first." is for legitimate users only.

Hackers can spoof the address of the central node and are good to go, no need to hack the comlink. Intercept signal, read matrix IP, good. Leaves only exploit and decrypt to do.

[Abbandon]

Oh your right. "Offers only a degree of protection".... I conveniently omitted that part from my reading hehehe. Yeah so now im back to what Ryu said. locate, decrypt, grab ID, sniffer comm traffic, spoof/hack.