Priority / cost for metahumans, Go ahead, flame me, but . . . |
Priority / cost for metahumans, Go ahead, flame me, but . . . |
Dec 1 2003, 11:07 PM
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#1
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
Okay, I am relatively new to SR3 and something has me stumped. Elves and trolls use Priority C while dwarves and orks use Priority D. Or, if you prefer the point-based system in SRComp, elves and trolls cost 10 while dwarves and orks cost 5.
(Now, before I go further, let me insert a disclaimer - I am not allowing for any sort of social or role-playing benefit of this or that race, because that will vary from game to game. Some groups play in a way that makes elves very valuable, while others spend half the game smuggling between the Ork Underground and Cascade Ork lands. So, please ignore any non-game-mechanic factors for a moment . . .) Let's compare the racial modifications: Dwarf - +1 Body, +2 Strength, +1 Willpower (net +4), thermographic vision, resistance (+2 dice) for any test to resist a disease or toxin Elf - +1 Quickness, +2 Charisma (net +3), low-light vision Ork - +3 Body, +2 Strength, -1 Charisma, -1 Intelligence (net +3), low-light vision Troll - +5 Body, -1 Quickness, +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma (net +4), thermographic vision, +1 natural reach, +1 natural dermal armor As I see it, in terms of game mechanics, elves and orks are virtually identical - both have a net +3 and low-light vision. Dwarves and trolls are also nearly identical - both have a net +4, thermographic vision, and two other bonuses. They also both suffer the "wrong-sized-world" problem. Why then, do dwarves cost less than elves?! By the numbers, dwarves are a bargain, and elves are a raw deal. It would seem that dwarves and trolls should be Priority C / cost 10, and elves and orks should be Priority D / cost 5. (As a reminder, I'm not talking about role-playing issues that will vary from group to group.) I asked my GM this question, and he replied that it was based on the races' prevalence in the population. That explanation stands up well when comparing orks and trolls (there are a LOT more orks), but does not hold up when comparing elves and dwarves - elves are more common by percentage of population in almost every location in my collection of sourcebooks, including New Seattle and Shadows of North America. Thus, I don't buy the prevalence argument. So, why the disparity? Why do the high-benefit dwarves cost less than the low-benefit elves? Does anything in canon or company material explain this? (Perhaps in a previous version of SR?) It seems grossly illogical to me, and if I were to run a campaign, I would switch dwarves and elves in the Priority listing / point-based cost table. What do you think? |
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Dec 1 2003, 11:14 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
I'm all for making it an even 5 points/category D across the board. Sure Trolls are big and strong, but the size and social issues keep them from dominating. I'm not sure why Elves would be twice as expensive to play as Dwarves except that maybe the SR team wants to discourage playing elves.
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Dec 1 2003, 11:24 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,035 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Anahiem, CA Member No.: 100 |
You have to take several things into account, not just number chunching.
Elves are looked at as the favored race, being that they get the least about of social problems. Also, dwarves have a running multiplier of 2, which is a big draw back. If you were going to chance anything, I would make them all cost the same, as they balance out in the end. |
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Dec 1 2003, 11:25 PM
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#4
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Don't forget that dwarves have that x2 run multiplier. Which is actually a lot bigger deal than it sounds.
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Dec 1 2003, 11:27 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I've seen this argument a million times, but it doesn't really hold water. Instead of just adding up bonuses, consider the race in a holistic way. I'll try and illustrate what I mean: Some other race might have Low-light vision, Strength +23, Intelligence -5, Body -5, Willpower -5, and Quickness -5. Such a race would have the exactly the same modifiers as elves and orks, but would obviously be inferior. Hell, it'd suck balls enough to call it Priority Q. |
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Dec 1 2003, 11:34 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,837 |
Take into account cost of stuff too. Dwarves and Trolls have to double the cost of armor, clothes, etc due to their nasty size negative.
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Dec 1 2003, 11:40 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
I forgot about the running multiplier - that's a really good point.
I don't think elves' social position is a factor - there are elves living in the Barrens, and the Tir ain't what it used to be. Now, making them all cost the same has some potential. More accurately, making them all the same Priority has some potential. As far as point-based costs go, I still think I would make trolls pricier than the others. Maybe trolls 10, dwarves 8 (running multiplier), elves 6 (social benefit, if any), orks 4 (social drawback, if any). That is also approximately the reverse order of prevalence, going back to my GM's suggestion . . . One other valid point - elves are mildly better than orks, not for social reasons, but because they have no penalties in that net +3. |
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Dec 1 2003, 11:44 PM
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#8
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
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Dec 2 2003, 12:08 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
:eek: Good Lord, 25 pages! Quick - somebody lock this thread! :dead:
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Dec 2 2003, 12:16 AM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-September 03 From: Holiday,fl Member No.: 5,595 |
See what you started......all over again, chodav.....
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Dec 2 2003, 12:17 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 334 Joined: 17-November 03 From: Texas Member No.: 5,828 |
I agree that the run mod is the biggest downside on dwarves is thier run mod. And, by cannon, the most commonly prejudiced-against race is orks (I don't remember where it says this, but I remember them pointing out that there are simply more orks to hate than Trolls.
I think as they are, ultimately, they encourage (at least in my experience) a rough game balance of the %'s that are supposed to exist in Seattle. |
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Dec 2 2003, 12:22 AM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
lock the thread? why? do you think it's stupid? are you calling me stupid!?
numbers-wise, i don't think it's really possible to justify the point cost of dwarves. for the price, they really are the shiznat. in most games, though, they're still fairly uncommon (sphynx's mileage may vary!); i guess most people just don't want to be short. |
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Dec 2 2003, 12:26 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-September 03 From: Holiday,fl Member No.: 5,595 |
well the cost of gear might be a factor in the low dwarf usage, even trolls for that matter.
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Dec 2 2003, 12:27 AM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
:P My GM, for those who didn't guess . . . Yeah, being short sucks, so does the running multiplier, and for those two reasons I would never play a dwarf. I had this neat concept for an elf survivalist, but according to the previous thread on this topic, only newbies play elves, or somesuch . . . :| My character concepts always involve rolE-playing, but the rolL-playing usually intrudes. Hence my complaint about the cost of elves. Hey, GM-person, any chance you'll ever convert to SRComp's point build system? |
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Dec 2 2003, 12:42 AM
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#15
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
My Elf conjuring adept has a rating 4 ally spirit (which he has sex with), an Ares slivergun, and a spell defense pool of 5.
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Dec 2 2003, 12:46 AM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Where'd your Conjuror get Spell Defence from? |
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Dec 2 2003, 12:46 AM
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#17
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-September 03 From: Holiday,fl Member No.: 5,595 |
Thanks for sharing, bearclaw. :D
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Dec 2 2003, 12:58 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-November 03 Member No.: 5,852 |
Sharing what? That he role-plays sex? Geez, I'm married, have two kids, and just plain don't get any anymore, and I don't stoop that low . . .
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Dec 2 2003, 01:00 AM
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#19
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I think you mean silvergun.
~J |
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Dec 2 2003, 01:00 AM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,632 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Portland Oregon, USA Member No.: 1,304 |
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Dec 2 2003, 01:10 AM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Ahh yes, but that's wrong! :) |
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Dec 2 2003, 01:41 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 488 Joined: 4-August 03 From: Amidst the ruins of Silicon Valley. Member No.: 5,242 |
It's a gun that shoots flechettes. Definitely slivergun, not silvergun. </ot> :D |
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Dec 2 2003, 01:44 AM
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#23
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, he quite definitely means Silvergun. The fact that he's having sex with his ally spirit removes any doubt :)
~J |
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Dec 2 2003, 02:10 AM
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#24
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
If anything, under the Build Point System, all metahumans should be cranked up to 10 points instead of 5. The fact that they all grant between 3-4 (6-8 build points) bonus Attribute Points gives them too much of an advantage to be worth only 5 build points. Especially elves who have *no* significant downfalls outside of racism.
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Dec 2 2003, 02:35 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
Is the ally spirit dikoted? In any case, if you think you get gypped on the metaraces, then the metavariant cost is far over the mark. |
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