Swapping Programs, What kind of action is it Options

[Exodus]

Search Fu Fails me yet again, but what kind of action is it to swap out a program with another one when your in AR or VR?

Say I wanted to swap my Browse utility with a medic program. What kind of action would that be?

[Nightwalker450]

pg 227 Under loading Programs

Complex Action

[Jaid]

isn't it simple + complex? one to unload, one to load?

[Nightwalker450]

Oh my god, you're right. Technomancers shed another tear for hackers. As it takes them a pass and half to ready a different program, while the Technomancer just Threads it up if he doesn't have it, or already has it ready (and can thread it higher) with no actions at all.

I recommend all Hackers pick up a low rating agent, just to handle loading and unloading programs. Its one less program you yourself can run, but will allow you close a program (simple action), order agent to ready a program (simple action), agent on its pass can then activate the program for you.

[hobgoblin]

can agents do that?

[DireRadiant]

Yes.

[hobgoblin]

im tempted at calling for a page ref, but something tells me it will be futile as its probably not directly spelled out as much as implied by the agent being a matrix entity or something...

[Jaid]

honestly, it's not that big of a deal for a hacker to exceed their 'allowed programs'.

response degradation due to program overload does not change system. system, not response, is the limiter for all of your other program ratings. as such, a response 6 system 6 commlink with 13 programs running may have a response of 4, but it still has a system of 6 and can run rating 6 programs. the response of 6 only affects things like matrix initiative which, while not irrelevant, is not such a horrifyingly crippling loss that it's unthinkable to even try it. just eat the -1 response and run 10 or 12 programs, it's not that bad... with 10 programs (the maximum a chargen commlink can run without losing more than 1 response) you're looking at (for example): analyze, encrypt, armor, attack, biofeedback filter, ECCM, exploit, medic, spoof, and stealth. thus, you are encrypting everything while having it hidden, and most of your emergency programs are loaded and ready to go. not exactly a horrible sacrifice, is it?

so sure, technomancers do have a slight advantage in that they can instantly have any program imaginable (i hope this will become more interesting once unwired comes out, but only time will tell) but it's certainly not such a massively huge advantage that the hacker is crying to sleep over it on a giant pillow stuffed with excess BP that have been used to make them not useless outside of the matrix over it.

[edit] on a side note, being able to command agents to swap out your programs is not a terribly awe-inspiring solution. it's still a simple action to command your agent, which means you'll be spending a simple action to unload and a simple action to load. saves you a simple, which is not a bad thing at all, but it still sucks when you really need a program changed immediately =) [/edit]

[hobgoblin]

err, no. system is limited by response. if response drops, so does system...

and no, that does not lead to a "death spiral"...

[KurenaiYami]

err, no. system is limited by response. if response drops, so does system...

and no, that does not lead to a "death spiral"...

Not sure if this counts as off-topic, and if so, I apologize, but when the system is dropped this way, do all of my rating 6 programs start running as though they were rating 5, or can I not run them?

The second, obviously, could prove most troubling.

with 10 programs (the maximum a chargen commlink can run without losing more than 1 response) you're looking at (for example): analyze, encrypt, armor, attack, biofeedback filter, ECCM, exploit, medic, spoof, and stealth. thus, you are encrypting everything while having it hidden, and most of your emergency programs are loaded and ready to go. not exactly a horrible sacrifice, is it?

Actually, at CharGen you're dealing with a Response of 5, so the most you could run at no penalty is 4, while the most you run without losing more than 1 Response would be 9. Unless we're talking about an older version of the game, or there's some errata since the fourth printing that I'm unaware of.

Response may be affected if you run too many programs. For every x number of programs you have actively running, where x = System rating, your Response is reduced by 1. So if you're running 10 programs with a System 5, your Response will be reduced by 2.

Of course, this penalty burns, so if there was some change I don't know about, that would be good to know.

[Fortune]

... when the system is dropped this way, do all of my rating 6 programs start running as though they were rating 5, or can I not run them?

The Programs run at the new (lower) Rating.

[Elve]

According to FAQ, System doesn't drop in this case

[Fortune]

According to FAQ, System doesn't drop in this case

Then my answer applies to decreases in Response instead of System. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Feshy]

Then my answer applies to decreases in Response instead of System. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Response doesn't limit program ratings; it only limits System rating. System in turn limits all the other programs.

So, if the FAQ is accurate about System not degrading when Response degrades, then programs also keep their original ratings. That... is a huge improvement over how I thought it worked. -1 initiative isn't a good thing for hackers, of course, but it is a whole lot better than an effective -1 penalty to all matrix actions!

[Nightwalker450]

Response Limits system but not for the purpose of limiting the number of programs.

So if your response drops your system is effectively lower, so are your programs.

But this doesn't happen:
Response 3 System 3...
2 Programs = Response 3, System 3 (Limit 3 Programs)
3 Programs = Response 2, System 2 (Limit 2 Programs, Response - 1 = 2)
4 Programs = Response 1, System 1 (Limit 1 Programs, Response - 4 = -1, System = -1, Limit -1 Programs, ........ Crash)

Instead
Response 3 System 3...
2 Programs = Response 3, System 3 (Limit 3 Programs)
3 Programs = Response 2, System 2 (Limit 3 Programs)
...
6 Programs = Response 1, System 1 (Limit 3 Programs)
...
9 Programs = Response 0, System 0 (Crash)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now with the FAQ I've been wondering if I load a rating 6 System on a rating 3 Response, can I run 6 rating 3 programs still? Since response doesn't affect the systems number of programs? Or is this the case of the "Natural" Response caps the System's number of programs, but the slowed response doesn't?

[Jaid]

the FAQ makes a special exception for system when it is reduced by the response degrading as the result of running too many programs iirc. therefore, (since it is an exception and not the rule) when the normal response is lower than the normal system, the normal system should be capped by the normal response fully.

on a side note, whether or not response degrades *at* the system rating in programs, or *after* the system rating in programs is reached is somewhat uncertain. it says that you can run up to system programs before degradation in one place, and that when you hit system programs you take the penalty in another.

since the second interpretation means that a response 1, system 1 commlink would then be designed such that it cannot even run a single rating 1 program without suffering response degradation, i have always assumed the first rule i mentioned was the intended one. if you wish to run it the second way, it is only 1 program lost, and still not a huge problem imo.

nice to see i didn't have to explain myself again though, thanks to all those who stepped in and clarified what i meant; i thought i had been clear, but evidently i had not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[edit] clarified what i was responding to in my first paragraph [/edit]

[hobgoblin]

ok, when did that make its way into the faq?!

im starting to get tired of the faq contradicting the rules for no good reason.

i for one is going to be playing it like this: response drops the current rules, and continues dropping by those rules. note however that it will be dropping by the max stats, not the current.

so even if response and system have been ground to a 1, if the system and response is 6, your currently running 30 programs and/or agents. sadly, all of those will also be operating with reduced effectiveness.

now, if they plan on sticking to what the faq say, they need to come out with a errata asap that have a line added to the system description on page 213 with the same effect as the faq "rule". leaving it with a faq entry like that is anything but helpful!