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> Standard meet procedures, meeting in the meat
djinni
post Feb 12 2008, 07:30 PM
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getting new group together and proposing a SOP for meeting let me know what you think.
Group makeup: 400bp
Hacker #1: meets wirelessly. (mundane hacker)
Magic #1: meets Astrally. (Mage tradition specializing in UBER force spells wolf mentor spirit)
random dude #1: In the meat (orc: his character isn't actually useful, but as players we don't really care)
Hacker #2: meets wirelessly, with microdrones and in Van (technomancer specializing in drones, promised GM to not use drone army tactic)
the undercover #1: stays onsite within eyesight but not apart of the meet. (Gun bunny, can only kill things, again not very useful outside of combat)

Before the meet:
When the Johnson gives the meet details, automatically do matrix search for your prospective roles
Hacker #1 Sending in encoded transmission to face look for location, reads all information available. For the social engagement, dresscode, mannerisms, customs etc… in addition to the area within 3 blocks.
Hacker #2 should probe the target for security protocols, and leave back door. Floorplan, schedules, menus etc…for heads up display. Quick getaways using mapsofts and floorplans of surrounding buildings.
Mage #1 does Astral scans of the premises, and has spirit observe the area until meet time.
Physical search of premises, go as a patron, on a date etc… just to get the feel of the place.
Hacker #1 records Video feed for the party to review later.
Just before the meet Hacker #1 uses backdoor to infiltrate the camera systems of the real meet place. she feeds a few choice video feeds to the group ARs. In addition to a heads up display of the floorplan and security detail, and any info they have on armament inside. etc...

During the Meet, hacker #2 tries to dig for all the information he can about the Johnson using faceprint and matrix/Lonestar database and his collegues with him. This may include hacking the commlink of the Johnson, but it is generally frowned upon for that.

Mage #1 assenses the people at the meeting and those nearby. Looking specifically for any linked foci, active spells or spirit buddies.

Hacker #2, if he has inside drone, monitors the place, along with the hacker. If No drone inside, then Rigger monitors the place from a flight drone outside while meeting wirelessly. using high vantage to survey the area of traffic and congestion.

The undercover pretty much just watches the area inside, he doesn't even meet wirelessly. He only keeps contact with the Hacker through a web based forum talking about cattle migrations of new Zealand fainting sheep. Undercover Will usually stay an extra hour or two after the meet depending on how much "fun" he's having at the time.

Other Notes:
-We never use names at a meet, any type of name. only the ever changing party name made under reservations of which to meet unless the Johnson organizes the meet, and then force the Johnson to supply it.
- The hacker should highlight in AR three chairs that the face need to sit at so that the undercover is outside his field of vision but can be seen through a mirror or other reflective device. The undercover is in a location that has minimal if any video surveillance.
-We never reveal how many individuals are on the team. If pointedly asked, he should gesture to empty seats at the table and say this many.
-The “group? in the meat act like they are the only ones at the meet, hopefully it is only ever the one. never communicating directly with the Hacker, Mage, Rigger or Undercover, direct communicaes to the undercover are only over the forum, and he will not respond except on the forum ever, the others may communicate with the meat meet though, with the understanding it's a one way conversation excluding Undercover who never contacts either one directly, he relays mostly through the Hacker via the sheep herding website. Several dummy commlinks are linked into the party comm. And given access etc… so as to appear to be different numbers in the team.
-Face accepts any needed file transmissions, Nuyen exchanges, etc. secure information (ie information the Johnson does not want us to look at, will be received via skinlink datalock at a different location and meet.
-Face does all the talking, with the ocassional input from the group. However no one but the Face can be heard by the Johnson.

Standard Questions for the GM (other party members to be added)
- Scan of establishment, reveal astral sign, Weapons, Cyberware, Noticable bioware (no bioscan), RFID tags, correlated comm traffic.
- What weapons or cyber the Johnson and his friends have. In depth scan.
- Are they running their comms hidden. if not perception the comms
- Is there anyone in the crowd too interested in the meet.
- Anyone following the party during the drive to the real meet. (If undercover is being followed he loses them). If party is being followed hacker diverts them away with hacking traffic grid.
- What happens at the original meet place after the meats have left, and before they arrive (any vehicles start up nearby, any people looking confused or flustered. Any hurried activity of any sort.)
- Any active spells, foci or spirits with the Johnson and his friends or perhaps another astral mage.
- Any change of emotion or aura (through assensing) during the meet.
- Hacker should attempt to isolate and intercept wireless traffic. From Johnsons party. Looking for hidden comm nodes.
- After the meet check shadowland/jackpoint for hits of others interested, any rumors of others who might be interested in skiffing the job out from under us.
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Jhaiisiin
post Feb 12 2008, 08:23 PM
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That is very well thought out. So much so that I might just have to see if we can work some of this into our existing group. (We're somewhat less secure than you, to say the least)
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R-Caine
post Feb 12 2008, 08:36 PM
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It seems that everyone has a roll but who is the Face? Is it random dude #1, if so why have a useless member of the group be its public persona? Also I think this may be over the top for each meet. I have had games that the pay was based on the number of members who showed up to the meeting so this would not work well for those types. Also for your mage checking aura'a, remember these are just corporate employees which looking for changes in mood may have nothing to do with the job he/she might be going through some personal issues at home which would scew up your read on them. The only ones it would help against is if they have some personal stake in the job. Overall though very paranoid, fits some groups but limits how much work you will get and how it affects your Rep remains to be seen (some of those activities have consiqueces if someone screws up).

R-Caine
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Nightwalker450
post Feb 12 2008, 08:43 PM
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I'm kind of with R-Caine on this, it looks to be either super paranoid, or super professional. If you're getting jobs at 500,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) or more per than you're super professional. Otherwise looks very paranoid, and half the stuff your hackers are doing could get you in deeper trouble then the job itself (re-routing traffic through grid-guide?). All for being careful, and watching my back but if the meet takes 2 game sessions and the run only takes 1, might need to be adjusted.
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Sir_Psycho
post Feb 12 2008, 09:37 PM
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I can see a situation where this puts your useless face into danger. If for any reason your negotiator digs himself into a hole, asks for too much money, insults the john, rolls badly, has a history he didn't know with the johnson, or if the johnson hates orc, in an escalation you are effectively cut off from your team-mate. Say your ork has to go into a room with a faraday cage, a white noise generator, and a ward or some fab-II/biofiber walls. The ork pisses the johnson off, or most likely, the Johnsons matrix support notices something wrong, namely the surveillance drones and electronic warfare you guys are pulling. Maybe the Johnson is new to this, and gets paranoid he's been found out, so his bodyguards within either throw a bag over your pals head or kill him on the spot. Then they hit the backdoor, and their magician and hacker provide support as they cross to another building, where they could all jump into a waiting car and split. If your pal is still alive, the electrodes are being attatched to his testicles about now.

Generally, the time you most need to fear a Johnson is at the end of the run, the pay-off. And by then he probably knows how many are in your team and possible MO. So your aces in the holes are considerably reduced. This way you're just alienating and intimidating a prospective employer.
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Cthulhudreams
post Feb 13 2008, 12:30 AM
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You could save yourself many difficulties by purchasing a rating 6 white noise generator and a really good SIN for your face, then being more careful in the most important part of meet selection for the overly paranoid - location.

Why meet in the back room of a seedy bar? It's a pain in the ass to secure which you seem to want to do. You could just pick somewhere else, like an airport lobby, or the cafe in the foyer of a government building. Somewhere that is secured by a (ideally) a third party. No-one is going to lay down the smack on your face in that sort of location if they are planning to get away with it. I'd suggest avoiding corporate buildings unless you pick them, because he may suggest an allied corporation.

This gives you very tight security on the taxpayers tab. Brilliant.
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nathanross
post Feb 13 2008, 01:02 AM
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While I personally LOVE this kind of paranoid running, not all GMs play or even like this style.

Every GM I have played under expected the whole team to be at the table (as this determined pay). I personally feel like meets would happen with just the face, as the rest of the team usually just drags the face down. I also like the idea of having an electronic war going on all around the meet (the teams two hackers, as well as the Johnson's hackers).

Really though it comes down to play style. If I started playing like this with some GMs it would be more of a liability than anything. I guess most of my GMs are just too trusting, who knows.
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Earlydawn
post Feb 13 2008, 02:58 AM
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This strikes me as, well.. silly. Unless you're playing a campaign that is bordering on a spy thriller, you've got way too much redundancy. One hacker can handle network security, facial matches, as well as any commlink intrusion you may want to do.. as a matter of fact, he can probably handle drone surveillance too. Your meeting spot should probably be of face choosing, assuming the johnson doesn't pick it. Ideally a place where the Face is friends with the owner and patrons such as to ensure they'll keep their mouths shut, and maybe even lend a hand if things go south.

I dunno, man. It just seems excessive. If you tend to follow the same style of running as in the novels, teams are very rarely consistent. They usually get recruited on a by-need basis. All these people are people you've gotta cut in. Also, if you get caught with some kind of CIA-wannabe setup covering a simple meet, the Johnson is going to think you're nuts. There was a section in one of the older supplements that talked about what was and wasn't proper etiquette for meet security.. I think it was Corporate Download, although I'm not sure. Check it out.
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Lord Ben
post Feb 13 2008, 03:15 AM
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Yeah, we typically don't have a lot of double-crossing going on and usually our fixer just gives us an assignment and a price. And if the DM starts asking who's coming and what weapons you're bringing then we pay attention. But we run a pretty trusting IC group. DM isn't out to get us and we don't do a lot of double-cross stuff. Each group and DM is different.

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kzt
post Feb 13 2008, 05:33 AM
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We tended to meet suspicious types in things like the space needle restaurant. Public, well secured areas.

Going to places that we didn't control we would normally get there as much ahead as made sense.

But as someone else said, the place to be really careful is the end of the run when the Johnson is supposed to pay up. Assuming you have done your part, the 4 outcomes you can get are: He pays and everyone is happy, He just tries to kill you, You turn over the stuff and he tries to kills you, you turn over the stuff and he stiffs you. We liked to totally dominate that area if possible. The problem with a highly public meet is that you can't do much if the Johnson stiffs you and walks away in front of the KE HQ.
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Lord Ben
post Feb 13 2008, 05:35 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Feb 13 2008, 01:33 AM) *
The problem with a highly public meet is that you can't do much if the Johnson stiffs you and walks away in front of the KE HQ.


That's when the whole campaign gets derailed as I try to make sure I can deliver his wife's head to him in a box.
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nathanross
post Feb 13 2008, 07:35 AM
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QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Feb 13 2008, 12:35 AM) *
That's when the whole campaign gets derailed as I try to make sure I can deliver his wife's head to him in a box.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)
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MaxHunter
post Feb 13 2008, 02:59 PM
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@djinni: I liked the setup, well thought-off if rather on the paranoid side.

For comparisons: Currently I am Gming three groups on and off. (nowadays the three groups are off on holidays/exams, poor me!)

Group 1 has no hackers, they get an agent to do some minor matrix security, the mage and a former company man with high perception work as "undercover" and the other two go and do the talking (they are an ork sammy and a adept/sniper, but both have Char 3 and decent negotiation skills) The dwarf mage has better social stats but a very short temper and not much common sense, so that's the reason he is usually designated as astral cover or something like that. This group would like your style, they are already into the 160 karma and have been fucked up enough times that paranoia is a necessity rather than a liability. They are making good money too.

Group 2 is a government strike team, their meets are with their officer, "Colonel Saigo" so the comparison is moot.

Group 3 are younger, more street level and extremely streetforward. They all walk to the meet. They even do it as they would go to a bar for a drink, and with the same level of preparation. They are three players +1npc. (orc samurai/rigger, elf criminal and human mage +elf weapon specialist) The caster is by far the most diplomatic and socially skilled of the three, he does all the talking with some interventions from the rest. The orc (who is the most veteran runner) has been asked IC to remain as quiet as possible during meets after too many screw-ups. -That character always manages to say something inappropriate, offensive or mean mannered, many times without even wanting to-

Different groups, different meet styles. All quite fun.

I wish I had some hacker players! I love what you can do taking advantage of the wireless world.

Cheers,

Max

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djinni
post Feb 13 2008, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Feb 13 2008, 10:59 AM) *
I wish I had some hacker players! I love what you can do taking advantage of the wireless world.

just call me if you want a hacker.

ah yes the old adage "you are paranoid."
but you know what? just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after me.
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Nightwalker450
post Feb 13 2008, 04:29 PM
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The problem with only the face going to the meet... He never pays the rest of the team as much as he pays himself. Our face stiffed us out of about 70,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) last run. Mainly because when the johnson said he was going to pay us an additional 25,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for the run. We told the face to get it up to at least 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) because there was alot of things that we weren't told about... Either way the face didn't succeed at the bargaining, but when the money was given to him it was an additional 25,000 per PERSON, not total. He told us he succeeded in the bargaining at getting it up to 30,000 for the group, and kept the rest for himself.

SO! In following it is the Hackers job to keep the face in line, which goes with never trust a hacker face. My technomancer has been given reasons to be paranoid during this last run, and as such had already planned on taking time to set up the necessary back door into the face's commlink (his is the only one of the teams which I haven't done yet). So hopefully by the end of the next run I'll have enough intel to take down the face. (One of other teammates is quite short tempered, but pretty friendly with me, I've done a few upgrades on his equipment for him.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )
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djinni
post Feb 13 2008, 05:28 PM
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the "random guy #1" is technically the face, but since he's really not useful I figured this way he'd have a use.
white noise generators make noise so its kinda rude to have one in public and as soon as you turn it on everyone looks in your direction anyway.
ah yeah something I forgot to put in the face never "goes to the back room" if a private room with inhibiting paint or other features is the locale of the meet then the face politely refuses entry in a scripted fashion not deviating from the script. this of course insults the johnson however there is no chance we get geeked from the invisible guards in the next room or other nasty features. and yes I realize that a GM will not ambush kill the party but the characters don't know that.

QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Feb 13 2008, 12:29 PM) *
The problem with only the face going to the meet... He never pays the rest of the team as much as he pays himself. Our face stiffed us out of about 70,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) last run. Mainly because when the johnson said he was going to pay us an additional 25,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for the run. We told the face to get it up to at least 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) because there was alot of things that we weren't told about... Either way the face didn't succeed at the bargaining, but when the money was given to him it was an additional 25,000 per PERSON, not total. He told us he succeeded in the bargaining at getting it up to 30,000 for the group, and kept the rest for himself.

its an open comm, everyone is technically at the meet just not physically except for the gun bunny who is our "ace in the hole" should something go horribly horribly wrong. everyone (except the undercover) can communicate with teh face and can hear everything in the meet, the undercover can hear due to increased senses.
the jobs we take are priced in lump sum not "per runner." so if the johnson says it's a per runner job and all runners have to be present we either politely refuse the job or, have a matrix rollcall (remember the faux connected comms?).
QUOTE
SO! In following it is the Hackers job to keep the face in line, which goes with never trust a hacker face. My technomancer has been given reasons to be paranoid during this last run, and as such had already planned on taking time to set up the necessary back door into the face's commlink (his is the only one of the teams which I haven't done yet). So hopefully by the end of the next run I'll have enough intel to take down the face. (One of other teammates is quite short tempered, but pretty friendly with me, I've done a few upgrades on his equipment for him.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )

oh yeah never trust the hacker, thems buggers'll sell you out faster than lonestar.
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nathanross
post Feb 13 2008, 07:04 PM
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1st rule of Shadowrun: Trust No One!
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Jhaiisiin
post Feb 13 2008, 08:24 PM
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I thought that was Paranoia. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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bluedragon7
post Feb 14 2008, 03:56 PM
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Nice for a campaign with higher stakes if your team is a well-oiled machine, but i guess you would loose out quite a few contracts.

The Johnsons i usually portrait are used to have everyone show up, but they dont often work with established teams
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djinni
post Feb 14 2008, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (bluedragon7 @ Feb 14 2008, 11:56 AM) *
Nice for a campaign with higher stakes if your team is a well-oiled machine, but i guess you would loose out quite a few contracts.

I don't see how, employers tend to be impressed by the "well oiled machine" as long as they are on the up and up. if they plan on being dishonest then yeah but you don't want those johnsons anyway.
if you pull one job a month that pays the bills then you can afford to miss out on a few jobs a month.
QUOTE
The Johnsons i usually portrait are used to have everyone show up, but they dont often work with established teams

true and in those instances everyone is going to insist upon being present to ensure not getting screwed.
but if a newbie johnson says "I demand the entire team be physically here." I would respond with "why?"
there's really no reason for the employer to meet everyone. as long as they are all an established group. and if the group has reputation for this kind of meet then the johnson will also know upfront "that's how they do it." how else would htey have your number, except via a mutual contact or fixer.
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bluedragon7
post Feb 14 2008, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (djinni @ Feb 14 2008, 05:31 PM) *
I don't see how, employers tend to be impressed by the "well oiled machine" as long as they are on the up and up. if they plan on being dishonest then yeah but you don't want those johnsons anyway.
if you pull one job a month that pays the bills then you can afford to miss out on a few jobs a month.


If you dont want to go in a shielded room some employers might have a problem with that, not because they want to harm you but they want to ensure no information gets out, so transmitting that data wireless is a no go.

And while some surveilance is expected, if you dig too far and too aggressive it might scare off your potential employers. There is a reason why they dont have a Sign on their Head that says "Ares Property"
They might tell you who they work for after you accepted, but they insist in tha fact not being known before that
QUOTE
true and in those instances everyone is going to insist upon being present to ensure not getting screwed.
but if a newbie johnson says "I demand the entire team be physically here." I would respond with "why?"
there's really no reason for the employer to meet everyone. as long as they are all an established group. and if the group has reputation for this kind of meet then the johnson will also know upfront "that's how they do it." how else would htey have your number, except via a mutual contact or fixer.

If they are established, they have a reputation and so the J knows what to expect, as i said higher stakes, but for beginners a J calls some Fixers to send me some Talent, better if they already worked together, but unless they a established he wants to see all of them
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tisoz
post Feb 14 2008, 07:44 PM
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My first thought was, "I need to cut and paste this into my good ideas file," but then I realized when I run a game I usually have the meet in a warded room that blocks matrix signals either with a Faraday cage or that signal blocking paint. There is usually a white noise generator in use, too.

This simple meeting procedure would be about standard as far as I can see with peoples knowledge of 6th world surveillance means. If there is a demand for such meeting places, someone is going to provide them. Before you jump to the how much demand can there be for shadowrun meetings, please remember any business meeting would want to be as secure, so a hotel and some bars are going to invest the little extra money to provide these rooms as they can charge a premium over standard rooms and they are an added amenity to disclose in their marketing campaign.
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djinni
post Feb 14 2008, 08:34 PM
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you also have to realize that appearance of unimportance is the best counter surveilance there is.

if you see a guy walking down the street briefcase in hand do you think "hey he's got 30 million dollars worth of diamonds in there!" or do you gloss over him...
if that same guy has handcuffs attaching the briefcase to him you KNOW its important.

same goes for the meet. you meet in a secure area people are going to go to great lengths to listen in. you go have lunch as usual meeting an old college buddy, no one is going to pay attention.

if I wanted to be truly paranoid I'd have my connection 1 loyalty 6 contact attend the meet in my place (or the face's place), and if he goes to the secure area tap a piece of tape on the threshold for a connection to the outside. have a mini drone in the air duct, etc... laser connection to commlink and vwalla no more secure site.
but its usually best to avoid going into a place where they hold all the cards.

your level of paranoia may differ.
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tisoz
post Feb 14 2008, 11:05 PM
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Sorry, but you do not discuss sensitive business in a public place because, "doing so in a secure place will draw attention."

True story, my mentor was meeting to finalize a commercial real estate deal. The meeting is scheduled for the morning at a hotel, so he arrives there the night before and books a room. Heads to the restaurant for dinner then the bar for drinks. The sellers group is in the bar at a table, so he sits at a nearby table and listens to them discuss their entire strategy and absolute worst terms they can accept. To shorten the story, they get the worst terms they can accept.

I think I understand your wanting to keep things low profile and ordinary. My point is that presently hotels do host business meetings and some bars/nightclubs do offer private rooms. Using one is not out of the ordinary. In the future with magic and the ease of hacking, getting a secured room is still pretty ordinary.

With astral and AR peeping toms, I am surprised every bedroom isn't a secure room. I think this type security will be commonplace.
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djinni
post Feb 15 2008, 02:35 AM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Feb 14 2008, 07:05 PM) *
True story, my mentor was meeting to finalize a commercial real estate deal. The meeting is scheduled for the morning at a hotel, so he arrives there the night before and books a room. Heads to the restaurant for dinner then the bar for drinks. The sellers group is in the bar at a table, so he sits at a nearby table and listens to them discuss their entire strategy and absolute worst terms they can accept. To shorten the story, they get the worst terms they can accept.

a one in a million event is not used to make the standard. but besides that you missed the point that they were discussing business in the open didn't ya?
and I too can quote real life events that "prove" my theories. more than just what I did previously.
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