How canon does it have to be? Options

[Magus]

I have to throw my hat in the ring with Toturi. I run my games at the strict letter of the Law. I am the comsumate rules lawyer. I also play in Missions so that to does not allow House Rules. I try and memorize/learn all the rules/errata/FAQs updates to the SR world.

[eidolon]

I'm not sure I could nail down a percentage, but I'll try in a sec. Rules are awesome, unless I think they don't work for my game, in which case I change them. Fluff is great, unless I don't like it, in which case I rewrite it.

I like the game to "stay Shadowrun" (lol), but I definitely give it a little leeway in doing so.

edit: I voted 70%. That's probably fairly accurate.

[Cthulhudreams]

I view some segments of the book as non functional and prefer that they are replaced from a mechanics standpoint. This is usually true for most games too. Everyone makes mistakes.

Then I'm fine with anything from rules to flavour changes, so long as changes and expectations are provided with an indication of the supporting reasoning to allow one to draw further conclusions. For example if the GM wanted to focus on British rule hong kong, I'd want some indication of why (to set the scene for cultural tension? So the players can be part of an espionage game between the brits and the warlords?) to allow players to make informed choices (for example, in the first case racial questions should be answered in my background, but in the second I'll need make sure my character is suitable for a game about espionage).

[Kyoto Kid]

...just to clarify, I and my group do use a couple "houserules": The Blakkie Cha x 2 for Contact BPs at chargen (almost an "alternate" rule now) and the Logic + Skill capped by Programme rating for all Matrix tests (which more closely follows the standard mechanic for other skill tests). We have also considered a different mechanic for Adept advancement whereby the character only need initiate, but does not gain the benefit to raising power caps and must choose between either an additional Power point or Metamagic technique (but not both).

[martindv]

Apparently, I've offended some by quoting from a AD&D 2nd Edition rulebook a statement that if a rule doesn't work you & your group to go ahead and change it.

Apparently you are also either delusional or a liar, since no such thing occurred. No one got offended except maybe in your imagination.

Additionally, the ability to houserule is never, ever a fix for broken rules. Knowledge of the difference between a fix and a workaround is critical. As such, it is my opinion that a statement such as the one you indicate (a broadly similar statement appears in both SR3 and SR4) is totally inappropriate for inclusion in a rulebook.

What a novel idea.

I cannot understand this place. I cannot comprehend why so many people spend so much time defending their decisions to support a company that produces poorly-written work, expect nothing less, and then compensate by effectively doing the heavy lifting for said company that should have done that work in the first place, and then arguing with people that they are out of line for wanting better.

I know we tend to be a rather foolish lot at times. But I am stupified at the lengths to which some people have gone, and will go, to justify them maintaining an allegiance to a game that they have effectively warped into their own through constant "adjustments" of grossly broken rules and glossing over or retconning their own PCs because of poorly-written plot and setting material.

Someone once said "I don't listen to shitty music. I don't watch shitty tv shows. I don't go out and see shitty movies. I'm just stupid like that." That's exactly how I feel any more. I didn't buy Corporate Enclaves because I read the preview and read through it at the store, and quickly came to the conclusion that it's not good enough to buy. Arsenal is awesome. I got the PDF as soon as I could because it's guns and toys, and generally stuff I wanted. I like that. But I haven't bothered to read the fiction or materials on how to find the black market. I don't care. I don't need it. I don't want it. But I'll deal because most of the book is worth having. When the whole section on L.A. is the same nonsense that pervaded the CFS chapter, and that is the only reason I'd even buy it anyway, then why bother?

I try to stay as close to canon as possible. Not because I'm a rules lawyer, or in whatever multi-group deal Critias is in. It's because I've paid for the book. I want my money's worth. And I am not going to be taken for granted and expected to purchase dreck from this or any other game company, almost all of which have the same attitude of "take it and be grateful" because for some stupid reason their most vocal customers don't expect or demand anything better. They just waste their own time fixing something that shouldn't be broken in the first place.

I don't want Fanpro or Catalyst or whoever's producing Shadowrun next month to include whole sections of "fixes" and mods. It shouldn't be necessary. The rules should already work so you don't have to include a bunch of workarounds to compensate for shoddy rules.

You expect garbage, and that's exactly what you'll get. And then people complain about it tasting bad and having to make do with their own creations. That's insane.

[Ryu]

@MartindV: While I do not share your kind of attitude, I´m also a bit amazed about those with only a few percent of product usage. If I can figure out how to do that with other products, I´m going to rule the business world.

[Dashifen]

I voted so low in percentage not because I don't use the canon but because it's not required. Plus, suppose my view of canon is that it's separate from the rules. Canon refers to the world, IMO, and that world is completely optional in my games. I don't worry too much if my L.A. doesn't have P2.0 or if I have runners working in Philadelphia or Atlanta or other cities that haven't had much focus in the canon.

[Kanada Ten]

I'm loving the LA section of Ce so far. Hilariously awesome and totally usable. Hell, I've just buying the fluff for the last few years until Ar came out, when I went and bought Au and Sm along with it.

But I've played Shadowrun without magic, I've played it without tech, I've played Vietnamrun. Whatever. The SR4 mechanic isn't as intuitive for me as SR< but it's usable.

[martindv]

I guess I just feel like Kyoto Kid does about Portland.

If you live here, it's easier to understand how absurd the coverage of southern California has always been. I especially am baffled by how the writeup of a metro area of around 17 million, of which a comparably very few have anything to do with the media and entertainment industries, and more money flowing through it than most countries needs to focus on the vapidity of Horizon and Hollywood.

It read slightly better than the self-adulation heaped upon their own little world by the CFS chapter authors, who were obviously sheltered UCLA students or recent alum. But that's like saying it's slightly better to be executed by lethal injection than to be electrocuted.

One of the things that people still keep forgetting or ignoring is that El Infierno walled entire cities, including cities that serve as part of the industrial core of the Southland--a term which I noticed was shockingly absent from CFS and the intro of the section in CE by a "native". Stuff like that gets annoying.

[Fuchs]

I try to stay as close to canon as possible. Not because I'm a rules lawyer, or in whatever multi-group deal Critias is in. It's because I've paid for the book. I want my money's worth. And I am not going to be taken for granted and expected to purchase dreck from this or any other game company, almost all of which have the same attitude of "take it and be grateful" because for some stupid reason their most vocal customers don't expect or demand anything better. They just waste their own time fixing something that shouldn't be broken in the first place.

I don't want Fanpro or Catalyst or whoever's producing Shadowrun next month to include whole sections of "fixes" and mods. It shouldn't be necessary. The rules should already work so you don't have to include a bunch of workarounds to compensate for shoddy rules.

You expect garbage, and that's exactly what you'll get. And then people complain about it tasting bad and having to make do with their own creations. That's insane.

I think you fail to understand that just because I (or you) don't like something doesn't mean it's garbage. Please, don't tell me you expect all food produced and perfectly for your taste, and call others fools and worse for using spices to get the taste they want.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Well, if the rules don't actually work at all, tell you 'the GM should make something up as he sees fit' or contradict each other or the descriptions... and those are basic rules - then that is flat out bad design.

[martindv]

I think you fail to understand that just because I (or you) don't like something doesn't mean it's garbage. Please, don't tell me you expect all food produced and perfectly for your taste, and call others fools and worse for using spices to get the taste they want.

Did you even read my post? That is the worst analogy I could imagine.

I don't badmouth gamers (much). I have no problem badmouthing game companies. But if you want a food-related analogy that might not confuse you, I am saying that I don't like going to a restaurant and ordering a meal, only to be served something that is still raw and missing sides.

That is how I would some of the rules, such as the Matrix rules, and pretty much all of the setting information. I've gotten to the age where I am no longer willing to tolerate being offered garbage and will not take it. But in this case I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a restaurant dining room complaining while people are making their own dinners with food they brought from home and are happy to do so.

[Ryu]

I like cooking! And thats true for this analogy, too. Yet I see what those who don´t are missing. Really.

[Spike]

That is how I would some of the rules, such as the Matrix rules, and pretty much all of the setting information. I've gotten to the age where I am no longer willing to tolerate being offered garbage and will not take it. But in this case I feel like I'm standing in the middle of a restaurant dining room complaining while people are making their own dinners with food they brought from home and are happy to do so.

Some of us are happy to use even jacked up Matrix rules as written. So, to steal your analogy, you see raw meat, I see Steak Tartar.

Not saying I love Steak Tartar, but I don't necessarily get offended that it's raw either.

In other words: the matrix rules are not to your taste. Probably not to a lot of peoples taste. And, assuming you didn't walk into SR4 utterly ignorant of the previous three editions, if you don't like the setting, what the hell are you doing here?

I've reached the age where I no longer view settings and mechanics as linked together...

[Kanada Ten]

Shadowrun is more like a recipe book than a resturant.

[DocTaotsu]

Matrix rules... bleh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You see steak tartar, I see something that makes me consider being a vegetarian.

Than I go buy a /real/ steak and show it a picture of a fire before eating it.

I've always considered SR more of a restraunt guide. It list of bunch of places you can go but what you order is really up to you and your players.

In unrelated news: Thank you boards for having a twit blocking feature. I can now read posts without resisting the urge to alternatively vomit or start flaming individuals.

(RANT/)
On RPG game designers:
Thank you guys for staying in a business that can't be all that popular anymore and that I doubt makes you uncomfortable amounts of money. I've always assumed that people who write RPG's are people like me who love RPG's and want only the best for them. Oh, and to make enough money so they don't starve to death. Because of this I don't expect all that much from them, the worst case scenario is that they completely cock up (Cancer Causing Game 4th Ed) I read a couple of reviews and I don’t buy their game. Building games isn’t exactly rocket science, but it is a huge amount of work. If I thought it was that broken I’d build my own goddamn game system and write my own goddamn background material. Given how small the tabletop RPG market I’m just glad they haven’t given up entirely and gone off to build another mindless MMORPG.

My other thing is this. I’m willing to pay 10 bucks to go see a good movie in theaters. That 10 bucks gives me between 1 and half to 2 hours of entertainment and I consider that a reasonable exchange of services, even if I loudly complain that I remember when it was only blah blah. I’m willing to pay 30-50 bucks per Core RPG rule book because I typically get at least one campaign out of each book I buy. Most games run about 6 to 8 hours and each campaign runs at least 10 sessions. So for my 40 dollar investment I’m getting roughly 70 hours of enjoyment, usually more. Looking at the raw dollars per hour I’m actually making out like a bandit, and that’s saying I only run one campaign, I never loan my book out, and I never do anything else with it ever again (like steal it’s setting or rules for a homebrew). Sure I have to do all the heavy lifting but I find that half the appeal of tabletop gaming to begin with. When I buy a gaming book (which I’ve reviewed ahead of time) I’m saying “Hey thanks for doing X (X being the amount of money I spend) amount of work on stuff I really didn’t want to do myself.” That’s why I haven’t bought certain books, because they don’t interest me and I don’t think I’m going to get my money’s worth out of them. I don’t begrudge the writers for writing them and I don’t begrudge other players for buying them. If ever my players suddenly demand to shift their operations to somewhere featured in CE, groovy I’ll get the book. Till then… it’s all money.

I will note that I am the kind of freak who absolutely loves building models; particularly complex wood ones that require hours of love and dicking with before they look halfway decent. This is probably why I think of gaming as a craft, something that is meant to be refined, adapted, and/or ignored to derive the maximum amount of pleasure from a given investment of time and money.
/RANT)

[Kyoto Kid]

Hell, I've just buying the fluff for the last few years until Ar came out, when I went and bought Au and Sm along with it.

...you mean to tell me you have Argon, Gold, and Samarium? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[DocTaotsu]

Hehe, I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets confused when people start throwing around all this acronyms

[Kanada Ten]

SR4, Sm (Street Magic), Au (Augmentation), Ar (Arsenal), Rh (Runner Havens), Ce (Corporate Enclaves), Em (Emergence), Un (Unwired). Easy, right? Ok, so I made them all up.

[Fortune]

I'd have put up the list, but I figured it was rather self-explanatory.

[martindv]

Some of us are happy to use even jacked up Matrix rules as written. So, to steal your analogy, you see raw meat, I see Steak Tartar.

Not saying I love Steak Tartar, but I don't necessarily get offended that it's raw either.

In other words: the matrix rules are not to your taste. Probably not to a lot of peoples taste. And, assuming you didn't walk into SR4 utterly ignorant of the previous three editions, if you don't like the setting, what the hell are you doing here?

I've reached the age where I no longer view settings and mechanics as linked together...

I guess that's you.

If I pay $100 for a baseball steak with drawn butter and a couple of sides only to have the waiter brings me out a raw slab of cheap meat, I'd be pissed.

If I wanted steak tartar, I'd ask for D20... er, yeah.

It's not that I just walked into it. It's that I came to my fucking senses and realized that the companies making Shadowrun and various other games have treated me like a chump.

I play Shadowrun 3rd and 4th editions. I am generally fine with the game mechanics. But I am pissed that I have a whole stack of books that are of various levels of uselessness. I look at RH and just shake my head sadly. I will go against canon, but it pisses me off to have to pay for the privilege of rewriting it. I don't need CE to create my own version of Los Angeles. And thankfully I wasn't stupid enough to buy it or give what was actually in it any more thought than what's come up here.

[nathanross]

I go for 10% or less. I don't care that much about the canon metaplots and stories in my games. I just enjoy the fact that I can afford to buy the books to support the company producing this game and because they're usually very interesting to ready. The likely hood of me using stuff from them is usually slim to none, the exception (so far) being Emergence around which I based my current games.

Im totally with Dashifen on this. So far my group has never once used a Canon plot. I do like to read them though, and they do give run ideas (just not in the same context).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

the matrix rules are not to your taste. Probably not to a lot of peoples taste.

No, those rule simply don't add up when it comes to how networks work. Thats not a matter of taste, that's a matter of mathematics.

[Dashifen]

No, those rule simply don't add up when it comes to how networks work. Thats not a matter of taste, that's a matter of mathematics.

I actually really like the matrix rules because they don't add up when it comes to how networks work. I work with real networks and computers all day. I like being able to relax a bit and not thing so hard about why or how this is working and accept that it's a different world, with different technologies, and different purposes for those technologies. YMMV, as always.

[Grinder]

I don't have a clue about networks and the underlying technology - all I can do is to use a computer and surf the Internet. But still, even with my small amount of knowledge, I find the new Matrix rules lacking. Too much remains unclear and/ or suffers from bad wording.