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Imperialparadox
post Feb 13 2008, 07:39 PM
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The cyborg rules in arsenal state that a cyborg uses Response for Reaction and the appropriate Vehicle skill + Handling when an Agility attribute is required.

Say the character is specialized in the appropriate type of Vehicle skill pertaining to his drone type. Would his +2 specialization bonus apply to his Agility score? Since the character is using a Vehicle skill as his Agility, would the cyborg recieve a +2 bonus to Agility for having a Control Rig? Lastly, would his Agility also be raised by +2 since he is in hot-sim?

For example, Bob the Cyborg has a Pilot Anthroform skill of five and is specialized in Bipedal. He is plugged into a bipedal anthroform drone with a handling of +1. Would his Agility be 12? That being 5 for skill, 2 for specialization, 2 for Control Rig, 2 for hot sim and 1 for handling?

I note that the Arsenal rules and the FAQ lists a table for common rigger actions. One of the checks it lists is for Infiltration, being comprised of Response + Infiltration. I understand that while rigging you use the drone's attributes in place of your own. I surmise that at the time this table was created, they choose to link it to Response because drone's had no Agility attribute. However, since a cyborg has an Agility attribute would it be better to link Infiltration to Agility?

The cyborg rules also state that you can use a firearms skill in the place of Gunnery. If, for example, you use your Pistols skill instead of Gunnery, is it still linked to Sensor since you are rigging? or will it link to the drone's Agility instead?

Or when else might you use the drone's Agility for a test? Would Gymnastics or Palming be linked to the drone's Agility or would it be linked to Response similar to Infiltration? And any time that you use the drone's Agility, which is derived from the controller's Vehicle skill, do you recieved the Control Rig and Handling bonuses?

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the_dunner
post Feb 13 2008, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (Imperialparadox @ Feb 13 2008, 02:39 PM) *
For example, Bob the Cyborg has a Pilot Anthroform skill of five and is specialized in Bipedal. He is plugged into a bipedal anthroform drone with a handling of +1. Would his Agility be 12? That being 5 for skill, 2 for specialization, 2 for Control Rig, 2 for hot sim and 1 for handling?

Yes, that was the intent.
QUOTE
However, since a cyborg has an Agility attribute would it be better to link Infiltration to Agility?

The cyborg rules also state that you can use a firearms skill in the place of Gunnery. If, for example, you use your Pistols skill instead of Gunnery, is it still linked to Sensor since you are rigging? or will it link to the drone's Agility instead?

Or when else might you use the drone's Agility for a test? Would Gymnastics or Palming be linked to the drone's Agility or would it be linked to Response similar to Infiltration? And any time that you use the drone's Agility, which is derived from the controller's Vehicle skill, do you recieved the Control Rig and Handling bonuses?


In all of the above, I'd use the Cyborg's agility.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 13 2008, 08:08 PM
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Hmmm, pilot skill 7 (not sure if there are any skill bonuses a cyborg can get, so I'll leave it at 7), +2 specialization, +2 control rig, +2 hot sim, +3 handling for the Mitsuhama Akiyama, that's an effective Agility of 16. (that's higher than the augmented max of an elf with exceptional attribute and that gene mod) Add a firearm skill of 6 with a +2 from a smartlink and another +2 from specialization, and we're throwing 26 dice on your favorite firearms test. Or melee, or whatever your favorite agility-linked task is.
Vehicle armor plus worn armor.
Hmmm, suddenly cyborgs aren't looking so bad.
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Synner
post Feb 13 2008, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Feb 13 2008, 08:08 PM) *
Hmmm, suddenly cyborgs aren't looking so bad.

I still have no idea where that misconception came from. Drone and anthroform bodies are plenty nasty if modded right (which pretty much all cyborgs are going to be) and their inherent resistance to magic makes them quite tough in that respect too.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 13 2008, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (Synner @ Feb 13 2008, 03:13 PM) *
I still have no idea where that misconception came from. Drone and anthroform bodies are plenty nasty if modded right (which pretty much all cyborgs are going to be) and their inherent resistance to magic makes them quite tough in that respect too.

Oh no? Well let me clear that up for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It came from having Augmentation before Arsenal. Without anthroform bodies or the ability to mod them right, they are kinda sucky compared to a regular rigger. Look, I know you always promised that cyborgs would be cool once Arsenal came out, and I think most people believed you, and you were right. But in the meantime, they did suck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
And now I can play Ghostintheshellrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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krakjen
post Feb 13 2008, 08:50 PM
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On this subject, I have a question.
What does Otomo cyborg model really looks like?
The description says:
QUOTE (Arsenal Page 121)
Mitsuhama Otomo (Cyborg Anthroform Walker Drone)
First appearing in 2065, the Otomo remains the most common model for full-body cyborgs (see p. 158, Augmentation).
Each Otomo is custom built with a unique appearance and designed to replicate the look of a specific metatype and sex.
They are most commonly used as high profile bodyguards, personal assistants, and pleasure drones by those with extensive resources.
These drones are capable of wearing and using most gear designed for a metahuman of their model type.
Similar Models: Evo Consort, Monobe Mimic
Std. Upgrades: Cyborg Adaptation, Mimic, Touch Sensors, Walker


The Akiyama description is much precise and we know what to expect but the Otomo is much vague.
So does it really look like a metahuman? Can it actually be confused with a living human (à la Ghost in the shell)?
Or is it obvious that it's a drone vaguely imitating the shape of a metahuman, like how an aibo imitate a dog...
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 13 2008, 09:00 PM
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Look up the Mimic upgrade.
Page 139. Sounds pretty Ghost in the Shell to me.
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Synner
post Feb 13 2008, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (krakjen @ Feb 13 2008, 08:50 PM) *
The Akiyama description is much precise and we know what to expect but the Otomo is much vague. So does it really look like a metahuman? Can it actually be confused with a living human (� la Ghost in the shell)? Or is it obvious that it's a drone vaguely imitating the shape of a metahuman, like how an aibo imitate a dog...

An Otomo is metahuman-sized and shaped. When it comes off the production line it looks like a robot/android version of the appropriate metatype (think: Terminator without the skin), but since Otomos all come equipped with the Mimic mod when they're fielded they can pass as normal metahumans except on close inspection.
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krakjen
post Feb 13 2008, 09:14 PM
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Good, thanks for the answers...
Between that and the topic how to build a tachikoma, maybe I'll add some Shirow flavor to my game...
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Malicant
post Feb 14 2008, 12:24 AM
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Are you guys sure cyborg agility is vehicle skill + all and every modifier you can conceive? I get the impression it's rather skill and handling is all that comes into the equation. Specialization might be good too, but everything else produces ridiculous amounts of agility.
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the_dunner
post Feb 14 2008, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 13 2008, 07:24 PM) *
Are you guys sure cyborg agility is vehicle skill + all and every modifier you can conceive?

Yes. That's kind of the point.

Also remember -- intended for NPCs.

A jarhead is something that's hard to kill -- especially when you don't realize it's a jarhead -- and very capable of killing in return.

There's nothing fair about it.
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Malicant
post Feb 14 2008, 12:40 AM
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The hard to kill is not linked to agility. And since they attack via sensor+skill it's not game breaking or stuff. It just seems so... pointless but huge beyond reason. They sure can make fine entertainers or cat burglars.
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Jaid
post Feb 14 2008, 03:48 AM
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most of those dice pool bonuses would apply for a normal rigger anyways. the cyborg still isn't really that far ahead, if at all.

and on a side note, you forgot control rig boosters to bring the base skill up to 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 14 2008, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 13 2008, 10:48 PM) *
and on a side note, you forgot control rig boosters to bring the base skill up to 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

!!! I did forget control rig boosters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)
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Imperialparadox
post Feb 14 2008, 08:29 PM
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Using the jarhead's Pilot skill for Agility makes perfect sense to me. The jarhead's Pilot skill represents his fine control over his body, and the more skilled he is the better understanding he will have over what he can and cannot do with his drone body. This got me to thinking about a few things though.

First, in most cases a jarhead's effective Agility attribute will be higher than his Sensor attribute. In most cases it would seem the better choice would be to roll Agility + Firearm Skill rather than Sensor + Gunnery to attack. The only case that I can make for Gunnery is that it is a broader skill and cheaper to obtain in skillsoft form. If I understand correctly, Sensor + Gunnery would cover the use of any firearm by the jarhead, while using Agility + Firearm Skill would be more costly since the jarhead would have to purchase Pistols, Long Arms, Automatics, etc. to cover the same broad base. I suppose you could make things more even by raising the Sensor attribute, but I'm still a bit unclear on how that works.

Second, is the ability to use Pilot Skill for Agility an ability exclusive to jarheads? I could see a case for allowing any rigger to use an appropriate Pilot Skill to generate an Agility score for a jumped-in drone. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, after all I don't see much difference between a rigger jumped into a drone and a jarhead, who effectively is also jumped into a drone-his body in this case.

If regular riggers can do this too, it makes me refer back to my first point, where for most riggers it would be better to use the drone's virtual Agility score rather than relying on sensors to attack.

Anyone else see it like this? Or have a counterargument? I'm not find the ability to use Piloting for a drone's Agility a bad idea, but I'm worried that it will make Gunnery a worse choice in most situations.
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Imperialparadox
post Feb 14 2008, 08:29 PM
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*Ack double-post*
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ICPick
post Feb 14 2008, 08:32 PM
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Stupid question, but if you get your hands on one, can your rigger rig a jarheadless cyborg body? I assume so, especially with some mods, and if so, will it run as a regular drone with the correct softs?
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Malicant
post Feb 14 2008, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (Imperialparadox @ Feb 14 2008, 09:29 PM) *
Using the jarhead's Pilot skill for Agility makes perfect sense to me. The jarhead's Pilot skill represents his fine control over his body, and the more skilled he is the better understanding he will have over what he can and cannot do with his drone body. This got me to thinking about a few things though.

First, in most cases a jarhead's effective Agility attribute will be higher than his Sensor attribute. In most cases it would seem the better choice would be to roll Agility + Firearm Skill rather than Sensor + Gunnery to attack. The only case that I can make for Gunnery is that it is a broader skill and cheaper to obtain in skillsoft form. If I understand correctly, Sensor + Gunnery would cover the use of any firearm by the jarhead, while using Agility + Firearm Skill would be more costly since the jarhead would have to purchase Pistols, Long Arms, Automatics, etc. to cover the same broad base. I suppose you could make things more even by raising the Sensor attribute, but I'm still a bit unclear on how that works.

Second, is the ability to use Pilot Skill for Agility an ability exclusive to jarheads? I could see a case for allowing any rigger to use an appropriate Pilot Skill to generate an Agility score for a jumped-in drone. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, after all I don't see much difference between a rigger jumped into a drone and a jarhead, who effectively is also jumped into a drone-his body in this case.

If regular riggers can do this too, it makes me refer back to my first point, where for most riggers it would be better to use the drone's virtual Agility score rather than relying on sensors to attack.

Anyone else see it like this? Or have a counterargument? I'm not find the ability to use Piloting for a drone's Agility a bad idea, but I'm worried that it will make Gunnery a worse choice in most situations.

No matter what kind of weapon the jarhead uses, he always rolls Sensor+Skill. Gunnery is used for mounted weapons, if you shoot with a pistol, you roll Sensor+Pistols, a shotgun is Sensor+Longarms, etc.

And anything a jarhead can do with a drone body, a rigger can do, too. So, if a rigger needs to do some agility test while jumped into a drone, he'd use the vehicle skill. Of course, there are not many situations where you need to do that, and even less drones have bodies where you would think of it a agility, not driving/manuevering (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The only thing a jarhead can do a rigger will not be able to do, is to cut of wireless and still control the drone. Unless it's some freakish huge mecha drone with a rigger cocoon. Or something.

So, to finish this. Drones don't use their agility score for attacks, no matter who controls them or how.
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Feshy
post Feb 14 2008, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE
They are most commonly used as high profile bodyguards, personal assistants, and pleasure drones by those with extensive resources.


So, if a technomancer has one of these, and has it inhabited by a registered machine sprite, is it close enough to an ally spirit to have it dikoted?

/derail
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Fortune
post Feb 14 2008, 09:33 PM
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QUOTE (Imperialparadox @ Feb 15 2008, 07:29 AM) *
Or have a counterargument?


Shrug. It's a drone. Drones use Sensors.
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the_dunner
post Feb 14 2008, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 14 2008, 04:14 PM) *
No matter what kind of weapon the jarhead uses, he always rolls Sensor+Skill. Gunnery is used for mounted weapons, if you shoot with a pistol, you roll Sensor+Pistols, a shotgun is Sensor+Longarms, etc.

That is not correct. If a jarhead is using a carried weapon -- be it a shotgun, a katana, or a monofilament whip -- he uses his calculated agility score.
QUOTE
And anything a jarhead can do with a drone body, a rigger can do, too.

That is also, not correct. A rigger would use the drone's attributes. It's a function of the CCU.

If this isn't clear from the way things are written in Augmentation, I'll look into getting this clarified in an errata.
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the_dunner
post Feb 14 2008, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (ICPick @ Feb 14 2008, 03:32 PM) *
Stupid question, but if you get your hands on one, can your rigger rig a jarheadless cyborg body? I assume so, especially with some mods, and if so, will it run as a regular drone with the correct softs?

Sure. It'd be much the same as rigging a car that didn't have a passenger.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 14 2008, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE (the_dunner @ Feb 14 2008, 04:40 PM) *
That is not correct. If a jarhead is using a carried weapon -- be it a shotgun, a katana, or a monofilament whip -- he uses his calculated agility score.

That is also, not correct. A rigger would use the drone's attributes. It's a function of the CCU.

If this isn't clear from the way things are written in Augmentation, I'll look into getting this clarified in an errata.

So, the ability to use vehicle skill and turn it into an Agility attribute is a function of a cyborg's CCU? Ooooooooooooh. I had kind of gotten the impression that it was a general rule for using anthroform drones in character scale combat.
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Malicant
post Feb 14 2008, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (the_dunner @ Feb 14 2008, 10:40 PM) *
That is not correct. If a jarhead is using a carried weapon -- be it a shotgun, a katana, or a monofilament whip -- he uses his calculated agility score.

That is also, not correct. A rigger would use the drone's attributes. It's a function of the CCU.

If this isn't clear from the way things are written in Augmentation, I'll look into getting this clarified in an errata.


The rules in Augmentation are pretty clear. The jarhead is just a rigger, nothing more. A drone does not posses such a thing as a agility, reation or strength attribute. They are derived from other stats the drone and the riggers (jarheads) commlink has. And also the rules say pretty firm you use Sensor+appropriate skill for attacks. I don't really think an errata is needed to change this. It would be pretty fundamental change.
It would make a new rules set for something that does not need new rules. The CCU is just a container. I really don't see how this thing changes the jarhead's interaction with his drone body.
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Moon-Hawk
post Feb 14 2008, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (Malicant @ Feb 14 2008, 05:05 PM) *
The rules in Augmentation are pretty clear. The jarhead is just a rigger, nothing more. A drone does not posses such a thing as a agility, reation or strength attribute. They are derived from other stats the drone and the riggers (jarheads) commlink has. And also the rules say pretty firm you use Sensor+appropriate skill for attacks. I don't really think an errata is needed to change this. It would be pretty fundamental change.
It would make a new rules set for something that does not need new rules. The CCU is just a container. I really don't see how this thing changes the jarhead's interaction with his drone body.

This is why people think cyborgs suck, Synner. You were wondering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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