Cyborg questions Options

[Moon-Hawk]

Hmmm, pilot skill 7 (not sure if there are any skill bonuses a cyborg can get, so I'll leave it at 7), +2 specialization, +2 control rig, +2 hot sim, +3 handling for the Mitsuhama Akiyama, that's an effective Agility of 16. (that's higher than the augmented max of an elf with exceptional attribute and that gene mod) Add a firearm skill of 6 with a +2 from a smartlink and another +2 from specialization, and we're throwing 26 dice on your favorite firearms test. Or melee, or whatever your favorite agility-linked task is.
Vehicle armor plus worn armor.
Hmmm, suddenly cyborgs aren't looking so bad.

[Synner]

Hmmm, suddenly cyborgs aren't looking so bad.

I still have no idea where that misconception came from. Drone and anthroform bodies are plenty nasty if modded right (which pretty much all cyborgs are going to be) and their inherent resistance to magic makes them quite tough in that respect too.

[Moon-Hawk]

I still have no idea where that misconception came from. Drone and anthroform bodies are plenty nasty if modded right (which pretty much all cyborgs are going to be) and their inherent resistance to magic makes them quite tough in that respect too.

Oh no? Well let me clear that up for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It came from having Augmentation before Arsenal. Without anthroform bodies or the ability to mod them right, they are kinda sucky compared to a regular rigger. Look, I know you always promised that cyborgs would be cool once Arsenal came out, and I think most people believed you, and you were right. But in the meantime, they did suck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
And now I can play Ghostintheshellrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[krakjen]

On this subject, I have a question.
What does Otomo cyborg model really looks like?
The description says:

Mitsuhama Otomo (Cyborg Anthroform Walker Drone)
First appearing in 2065, the Otomo remains the most common model for full-body cyborgs (see p. 158, Augmentation).
Each Otomo is custom built with a unique appearance and designed to replicate the look of a specific metatype and sex.
They are most commonly used as high profile bodyguards, personal assistants, and pleasure drones by those with extensive resources.
These drones are capable of wearing and using most gear designed for a metahuman of their model type.
Similar Models: Evo Consort, Monobe Mimic
Std. Upgrades: Cyborg Adaptation, Mimic, Touch Sensors, Walker

The Akiyama description is much precise and we know what to expect but the Otomo is much vague.
So does it really look like a metahuman? Can it actually be confused with a living human (à la Ghost in the shell)?
Or is it obvious that it's a drone vaguely imitating the shape of a metahuman, like how an aibo imitate a dog...

[Moon-Hawk]

Look up the Mimic upgrade.
Page 139. Sounds pretty Ghost in the Shell to me.

[Synner]

The Akiyama description is much precise and we know what to expect but the Otomo is much vague. So does it really look like a metahuman? Can it actually be confused with a living human (� la Ghost in the shell)? Or is it obvious that it's a drone vaguely imitating the shape of a metahuman, like how an aibo imitate a dog...

An Otomo is metahuman-sized and shaped. When it comes off the production line it looks like a robot/android version of the appropriate metatype (think: Terminator without the skin), but since Otomos all come equipped with the Mimic mod when they're fielded they can pass as normal metahumans except on close inspection.

[krakjen]

Good, thanks for the answers...
Between that and the topic how to build a tachikoma, maybe I'll add some Shirow flavor to my game...

[Malicant]

Are you guys sure cyborg agility is vehicle skill + all and every modifier you can conceive? I get the impression it's rather skill and handling is all that comes into the equation. Specialization might be good too, but everything else produces ridiculous amounts of agility.

[the_dunner]

Are you guys sure cyborg agility is vehicle skill + all and every modifier you can conceive?

Yes. That's kind of the point.

Also remember -- intended for NPCs.

A jarhead is something that's hard to kill -- especially when you don't realize it's a jarhead -- and very capable of killing in return.

There's nothing fair about it.

[Malicant]

The hard to kill is not linked to agility. And since they attack via sensor+skill it's not game breaking or stuff. It just seems so... pointless but huge beyond reason. They sure can make fine entertainers or cat burglars.

[Jaid]

most of those dice pool bonuses would apply for a normal rigger anyways. the cyborg still isn't really that far ahead, if at all.

and on a side note, you forgot control rig boosters to bring the base skill up to 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Moon-Hawk]

and on a side note, you forgot control rig boosters to bring the base skill up to 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

!!! I did forget control rig boosters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Imperialparadox]

Using the jarhead's Pilot skill for Agility makes perfect sense to me. The jarhead's Pilot skill represents his fine control over his body, and the more skilled he is the better understanding he will have over what he can and cannot do with his drone body. This got me to thinking about a few things though.

First, in most cases a jarhead's effective Agility attribute will be higher than his Sensor attribute. In most cases it would seem the better choice would be to roll Agility + Firearm Skill rather than Sensor + Gunnery to attack. The only case that I can make for Gunnery is that it is a broader skill and cheaper to obtain in skillsoft form. If I understand correctly, Sensor + Gunnery would cover the use of any firearm by the jarhead, while using Agility + Firearm Skill would be more costly since the jarhead would have to purchase Pistols, Long Arms, Automatics, etc. to cover the same broad base. I suppose you could make things more even by raising the Sensor attribute, but I'm still a bit unclear on how that works.

Second, is the ability to use Pilot Skill for Agility an ability exclusive to jarheads? I could see a case for allowing any rigger to use an appropriate Pilot Skill to generate an Agility score for a jumped-in drone. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, after all I don't see much difference between a rigger jumped into a drone and a jarhead, who effectively is also jumped into a drone-his body in this case.

If regular riggers can do this too, it makes me refer back to my first point, where for most riggers it would be better to use the drone's virtual Agility score rather than relying on sensors to attack.

Anyone else see it like this? Or have a counterargument? I'm not find the ability to use Piloting for a drone's Agility a bad idea, but I'm worried that it will make Gunnery a worse choice in most situations.

[Imperialparadox]

*Ack double-post*

[ICPick]

Stupid question, but if you get your hands on one, can your rigger rig a jarheadless cyborg body? I assume so, especially with some mods, and if so, will it run as a regular drone with the correct softs?

[Malicant]

Using the jarhead's Pilot skill for Agility makes perfect sense to me. The jarhead's Pilot skill represents his fine control over his body, and the more skilled he is the better understanding he will have over what he can and cannot do with his drone body. This got me to thinking about a few things though.

First, in most cases a jarhead's effective Agility attribute will be higher than his Sensor attribute. In most cases it would seem the better choice would be to roll Agility + Firearm Skill rather than Sensor + Gunnery to attack. The only case that I can make for Gunnery is that it is a broader skill and cheaper to obtain in skillsoft form. If I understand correctly, Sensor + Gunnery would cover the use of any firearm by the jarhead, while using Agility + Firearm Skill would be more costly since the jarhead would have to purchase Pistols, Long Arms, Automatics, etc. to cover the same broad base. I suppose you could make things more even by raising the Sensor attribute, but I'm still a bit unclear on how that works.

Second, is the ability to use Pilot Skill for Agility an ability exclusive to jarheads? I could see a case for allowing any rigger to use an appropriate Pilot Skill to generate an Agility score for a jumped-in drone. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, after all I don't see much difference between a rigger jumped into a drone and a jarhead, who effectively is also jumped into a drone-his body in this case.

If regular riggers can do this too, it makes me refer back to my first point, where for most riggers it would be better to use the drone's virtual Agility score rather than relying on sensors to attack.

Anyone else see it like this? Or have a counterargument? I'm not find the ability to use Piloting for a drone's Agility a bad idea, but I'm worried that it will make Gunnery a worse choice in most situations.

No matter what kind of weapon the jarhead uses, he always rolls Sensor+Skill. Gunnery is used for mounted weapons, if you shoot with a pistol, you roll Sensor+Pistols, a shotgun is Sensor+Longarms, etc.

And anything a jarhead can do with a drone body, a rigger can do, too. So, if a rigger needs to do some agility test while jumped into a drone, he'd use the vehicle skill. Of course, there are not many situations where you need to do that, and even less drones have bodies where you would think of it a agility, not driving/manuevering (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The only thing a jarhead can do a rigger will not be able to do, is to cut of wireless and still control the drone. Unless it's some freakish huge mecha drone with a rigger cocoon. Or something.

So, to finish this. Drones don't use their agility score for attacks, no matter who controls them or how.

[Feshy]

They are most commonly used as high profile bodyguards, personal assistants, and pleasure drones by those with extensive resources.

So, if a technomancer has one of these, and has it inhabited by a registered machine sprite, is it close enough to an ally spirit to have it dikoted?

/derail

[Fortune]

Or have a counterargument?

Shrug. It's a drone. Drones use Sensors.

[the_dunner]

No matter what kind of weapon the jarhead uses, he always rolls Sensor+Skill. Gunnery is used for mounted weapons, if you shoot with a pistol, you roll Sensor+Pistols, a shotgun is Sensor+Longarms, etc.

That is not correct. If a jarhead is using a carried weapon -- be it a shotgun, a katana, or a monofilament whip -- he uses his calculated agility score.

And anything a jarhead can do with a drone body, a rigger can do, too.

That is also, not correct. A rigger would use the drone's attributes. It's a function of the CCU.

If this isn't clear from the way things are written in Augmentation, I'll look into getting this clarified in an errata.

[the_dunner]

Stupid question, but if you get your hands on one, can your rigger rig a jarheadless cyborg body? I assume so, especially with some mods, and if so, will it run as a regular drone with the correct softs?

Sure. It'd be much the same as rigging a car that didn't have a passenger.

[Moon-Hawk]

That is not correct. If a jarhead is using a carried weapon -- be it a shotgun, a katana, or a monofilament whip -- he uses his calculated agility score.

That is also, not correct. A rigger would use the drone's attributes. It's a function of the CCU.

If this isn't clear from the way things are written in Augmentation, I'll look into getting this clarified in an errata.

So, the ability to use vehicle skill and turn it into an Agility attribute is a function of a cyborg's CCU? Ooooooooooooh. I had kind of gotten the impression that it was a general rule for using anthroform drones in character scale combat.

[Malicant]

That is not correct. If a jarhead is using a carried weapon -- be it a shotgun, a katana, or a monofilament whip -- he uses his calculated agility score.

That is also, not correct. A rigger would use the drone's attributes. It's a function of the CCU.

If this isn't clear from the way things are written in Augmentation, I'll look into getting this clarified in an errata.

The rules in Augmentation are pretty clear. The jarhead is just a rigger, nothing more. A drone does not posses such a thing as a agility, reation or strength attribute. They are derived from other stats the drone and the riggers (jarheads) commlink has. And also the rules say pretty firm you use Sensor+appropriate skill for attacks. I don't really think an errata is needed to change this. It would be pretty fundamental change.
It would make a new rules set for something that does not need new rules. The CCU is just a container. I really don't see how this thing changes the jarhead's interaction with his drone body.

[Moon-Hawk]

The rules in Augmentation are pretty clear. The jarhead is just a rigger, nothing more. A drone does not posses such a thing as a agility, reation or strength attribute. They are derived from other stats the drone and the riggers (jarheads) commlink has. And also the rules say pretty firm you use Sensor+appropriate skill for attacks. I don't really think an errata is needed to change this. It would be pretty fundamental change.
It would make a new rules set for something that does not need new rules. The CCU is just a container. I really don't see how this thing changes the jarhead's interaction with his drone body.

This is why people think cyborgs suck, Synner. You were wondering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Malicant]

I don't really think they suck. Sensor ratings suck, is all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Unless you start using active sensor targeting. With 4 IP's it's not really a problem to lose a simple action. Or two.

[the_dunner]

The rules in Augmentation are pretty clear. The jarhead is just a rigger, nothing more. A drone does not posses such a thing as a agility, reation or strength attribute. They are derived from other stats the drone and the riggers (jarheads) commlink has. And also the rules say pretty firm you use Sensor+appropriate skill for attacks. I don't really think an errata is needed to change this. It would be pretty fundamental change.
It would make a new rules set for something that does not need new rules. The CCU is just a container. I really don't see how this thing changes the jarhead's interaction with his drone body.

I pulled out Augmentation, and doublechecked. You're correct in understanding what's presented. It's what's presented that needs to be errata'd. The asterisk in the inset box on p. 160 isn't sufficiently clear. The part where it mentions that the jarhead can use a non-gunnery skill to attack should also indicate that the jarhead can use his calculated agility in this instance. I'll make sure it gets added to an errata.