Cyborg questions Options

[Malicant]

Ouhkay. That is an incredible powerboost, I say. So if I now use my insane agility pool can I still use sensors to lock on a target to boost my dice pool even more? Just curious.

And this option is CCU only? Because seriously, drones suck at combat as long as sensor ratings average around 2.

Under current rules something like the Renraku Arcology Shutdown is not possible.

[Jaid]

i don't think you guys caught that riggers can do most of the same stuff.

they can do skill 6 + 2 specialisation + 2 control rig + 3 control rig boosters + 6 + 2 hotsim response for pilot tests (and of course add in handling). that's not very far off from what a cyborg can do. and they can do the same thing for gunnery tests as well, just by boosting sensor. it may not be quite as amazing as the cyborg dicepool above, but it should be enough for most people's needs.

[the_dunner]

And this option is CCU only?

It's actually specifically for carried weapons on anthroform drones. Essentially, if the weapon is vehicle mounted, then it falls within the rules of the targeting autosoft. As it's not mounted, it falls under the premise that the anthroform drone isn't working on a vehicle scale, but is instead functioning as a PC using a weapon. Under those circumstances, it uses Agility + Weapon skill

[Malicant]

No one questioned Riggers can do the same stuff. But if I understand dunner correctly cyborgs can use that massive dicepool to attack stuff. Riggers can't.
At least, that is how I understand it at the moment.

I think, I will houserule vehicle attacks to use the vehicle skill as attribute. Drones suck less, Riggers suck less and I have some consistency.

It's actually specifically for carried weapons on anthroform drones. Essentially, if the weapon is vehicle mounted, then it falls within the rules of the targeting autosoft. As it's not mounted, it falls under the premise that the anthroform drone isn't working on a vehicle scale, but is instead functioning as a PC using a weapon. Under those circumstances, it uses Agility + Weapon skill

That makes sense, I guess. Should have been mentioned in Arsenal or Augmentation.

[Jaid]

so basically, we're back to the CCU providing nothing special except that the rigger is now really really small... well heck, that's certainly worth 250k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Synner]

250k is more than reasonable for a first generation technology.

Not convinced? Try adding up all the various augmentation costs for what is needed to get a rigger near a jarhead's dicepools, don't forget to figure in the stuff that allows the rigger to have 4 IPs and a MBW-analogue. Then try to make the drone autonomous, un-hackable and unspoofable via the Matrix. Factor in its inherent resistance to magic and the fact that corporations get multiple drone/vehicle bodies and relevant modifications at bulk production cost - and economically sticking a cloned brain in a CCU starts to make sense.

[Lyonheart]

None of the Cyborg body's has a pilot rating, can they be upgraded with one to run the body while the cyborg is otherwise busy, say with hacking? I know they'd still need to be controlled, but you could tell it follow X and shoot at anyone who doesn't have IFF while I hack this. It would be nice to have a body with an autopilot. Having to bring a Segway for your cyborg body to ride on while you hack is almost as lame as riding a Segway.

[the_dunner]

None of the Cyborg body's has a pilot rating, can they be upgraded with one to run the body while the cyborg is otherwise busy, say with hacking?

For that particular instance, a pilot is unnecessary. The jarhead is already in hotsim VR. He's always hacking. If he's doing something with his drone while he's hacking a node, that just means that he's active in two nodes at once.

[Jaid]

[edit] this is in response to Synner's post. [/edit]

as far as magic resistance, a drone piloted by a rigger is just as resistant. corporate riggers can have the same access to drone bodies as a cyborg can also, so that's not a valid point. many vehicles can have the rigger inside, thus making it autonomous and unhackable (just turn off wireless) exactly like a cyborg.

as to the cost of the separate components vs the CCU, bring it on. i've done this math before, and it worked out just like i said: a CCU is *not* economically worth all of it's separate built-in stuff.


we start with the commlink. response 4 signal 4 costs 2500, implanted makes it 4500, plus 0.2 essence.
implanted sim module (hot sim) 5,000 plus 0.2 essence
Control Rig costs 10,000 plus 0.5 essence
Simsense Booster 65,000 plus 0.5 essence
rating 5 skillwires + rigger adaptation: 12,500 plus 1 essence
rating 6 damage compensators 90,000 plus 0.6 essence (to be honest, i would not have bothered, but cyborgs do technically get one)

total: 187,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 2.9 essence

and now for the cyborg:
CCU: 250,000 and all but 0.1 essence (we'll call it 5.9 for the sake of argument)
cyborg adaptation (note: this is where the skillwires are, technically): 15,000

total: 265,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) plus 5.9 essence.

so then, the real question becomes: is the ability to not spend 1 IP on piloting tests plus being smaller than a dwarf worth the drawbacks of being a cyborg (expensive maintenance, insanity, poor skills outside of matrix/rigging other than by skillwires, and inability to install any additional 'ware) worth 78,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 3 essence? if there was a piece of cyber in existence that applied those mods, how many people would buy it? in comparison, how many people will settle for 3 IPs of shooting and 1 (specifically, the 4th) keeping the vehicle stable? heck, by the time IP 4 rolls around, the combat could very well be over.

trust me, i am a bit of a powegamer and i do min/max on a regular basis, if i am not careful to the point of harming the roleplaying concept of the character (and, for the record, i would never blow that kind of money on a damage compensator either... instead, i would spend 50k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) less and, for the same availability even, pick up a pain editor, which will handle all the biofeedback damage i am going to be suffering in the vehicle (note that actually *having* a physical damage track at all is a leg up on the cyborg, as is being able to even take an action without being in a vehicle for that matter)

seriously, cyborgs are not worth the cost. they don't even come close. unless of course you've got some weird math up your sleeve that's telling you something different.

[Lyonheart]

For that particular instance, a pilot is unnecessary. The jarhead is already in hotsim VR. He's always hacking. If he's doing something with his drone while he's hacking a node, that just means that he's active in two nodes at once.

Yes, but can he Act on both nodes at once? It would be nice to have a pilot controlling your body so that it can take actions for you, he's likely going to have an Agent on his Comlink so that he can pay attention to what he's shooting while it watches his virtual back. So why not have a pilot to shoot at Enemys for him while he's busy paying attention to another node. The BBB basically says hackers that need to split there attention between two nodes are boned. That's not very Cyborg death squad.

[Ryu]

Not that I want to play a Jarhead, but being so small is worth it. Metahuman sized bodies come with more combat power than most samurai bring to the table, and the drone can go completely wireless because the controlling intelligence is reliable. I do not see jarheads as perfect riggers. They are more like perfect samurai.

Consider a rotordrone jarhead that travels in a swarm with rotordrones and flyspys. A rigger would need a helicopter to travel in that group, increasing cost and group profile size significantly.

[Malicant]

Yes, but can he Act on both nodes at once? It would be nice to have a pilot controlling your body so that it can take actions for you, he's likely going to have an Agent on his Comlink so that he can pay attention to what he's shooting while it watches his virtual back. So why not have a pilot to shoot at Enemys for him while he's busy paying attention to another node. The BBB basically says hackers that need to split there attention between two nodes are boned. That's not very Cyborg death squad.

Why would a cyborg death squad have the need to hack the matrix and shoot stuff at the same time? A rather weird argument.

If it is a squad and the need for matrix arises for some reason, one of them, maybe two go matrix and the rest lays waste to the surroundigs. Also, with 4 IPs you can smoothly shoot a couple of guys and hack some nodes without dividing your attention too much.

[Jaid]

who cares which one is the cyborg. just shoot them all until they explode... you're looking at something that should, by all rights, be a throwaway drone if you're expecting it to get shot at in combat at all, the last thing you want for something like that is to have the rigger *inside* the bloody thing.

and for the record, with the new PMVs, you can get a surprisingly effective combat vehicle that can drive around indoors easily. which makes them a lot like the samurai too, once you have a rigger directly controlling them.

honestly, if you think being small but unable to move without a drone is really that awesome, i bet you can find yourself a doctor who'll be more than happy to chop off a few limbs, and he'll probably even pay you for those limbs. congratulations, you are now about the size of a CCU, and you didn't have to pay 250k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to get there.

[Jaid]

Why would a cyborg death squad have the need to hack the matrix and shoot stuff at the same time? A rather weird argument.

If it is a squad and the need for matrix arises for some reason, one of them, maybe two go matrix and the rest lays waste to the surroundigs. Also, with 4 IPs you can smoothly shoot a couple of guys and hack some nodes without dividing your attention too much.

i think his point is that it would be nice if the cyborg could just set the vehicle to autopilot and not have to pay any attention whatsoever. it could be useful sometimes.

[Malicant]

who cares which one is the cyborg. just shoot them all until they explode... you're looking at something that should, by all rights, be a throwaway drone if you're expecting it to get shot at in combat at all, the last thing you want for something like that is to have the rigger *inside* the bloody thing.

and for the record, with the new PMVs, you can get a surprisingly effective combat vehicle that can drive around indoors easily. which makes them a lot like the samurai too, once you have a rigger directly controlling them.

honestly, if you think being small but unable to move without a drone is really that awesome, i bet you can find yourself a doctor who'll be more than happy to chop off a few limbs, and he'll probably even pay you for those limbs. congratulations, you are now about the size of a CCU, and you didn't have to pay 250k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) to get there.

Chill, dude. Where does all that rage and anger come from? Almost makes me want to throw a can of gas into the fire (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And the autopilot still does not make sense. You don't want the cyborg do anything than pay attention to his body and surroundigs. The primary task of those beasties is physical security, you know?
So, yes, a smart employer does not include a pilot into a cyborg. You'd never know when the cyborg get's bored and switches to autopilot while playing Minesweeper. The cyborgs need to make sense in the game world first and in rule effectiveness second.

[GryMor]

As far as I'm concerned, the main benefit of a cyborg over a drone plus rigger is that a cyborg can go into autistic mode and be completely immune from being wirelessly hacked while still able to make sensible decisions above the level of what is possible for an independently operating pilot program. Additionally, the cyborg has a chance of defending itself when being hacked via a hardwire, a drone in autistic mode is pretty much dead meat with regards to defending itself from someone with a physical connection.

[Lyonheart]

i think his point is that it would be nice if the cyborg could just set the vehicle to autopilot and not have to pay any attention whatsoever. it could be useful sometimes.

That was exactly my point. It's not THAT huge a deal, but since Cyborg body's are basically drones then they should have a pilot, for the same reason that cars do, because sometimes you don't want to drive.

If your Cyborg is a street sam, no big deal, you slice and dice and let your Agent do the Look the place up on Google maps and keep pesky hackers off your back. If your running the teams recon drones though it would be useful to subscribe your body as one of your drones and give it commands or just order it to watch the samies back while your scoping ahead in your iBall, or positioning your fly-spys. If your the Hacker, you want to devote your full attention to beating the pants off the facility's spider and not have your body siting there being a useless lump that needs to be guarded, yes your still on that node, but if your not paying attention to it it would at least be nice to have a pilot to make a perception test and message you about that guy sneeking up on you.

...and that's not even getting into the question of if you can have the pilot on a regular drone (or a cyborg, if they can even have them, although with out a rules call I don't see why they shouldn't they are still technically drones) can say use its actions for sensor targeting while the rigger lines up shots and pulls the trigger. Does anyone know if Pilots can be given a task on a drone the rigger is dived into too assist the rigger? Like the RIO on an F-14. I.E. scan for hostiles, lock up anyone I point the gun at, drive down the hall while I line up this shot, ect.

[Jaid]

[edit] apparently i can't for the life of me quote the right fragging post. this is in response to grymor's last post. [/edit]

as far as i can tell, nobody is discussing whether drones are competitive with cyborgs (when compared with a reasonably skilled cyborg, they aren't). the discussion now is "what makes a cyborg worth blowing 250k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on that isn't just as easily accomplished by a regular rigger for half the price" (or at least, that's my point).

basically, if you're putting a 250k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) piece of equipment into a drone, that drone is not going to be a throwaway drone. it's simply too risky to put 250k credits into a rotodrone that could be shot down before it even gets a chance to respond. if having really small vehicles is that important, you send a drone in with fuzzy logic upgrades and risk only 10-20k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , with a good chunk of that being software (and therefore easily recoverable if you use your own).

[hobgoblin]

didnt see this come up in the thread (by i may be "blind" so), but what about agility mods to cyberlimbs?

if one read arsenal right, one can add cyberlimb mods to mechanical arms...

[Synner]

250k is more than reasonable for a first generation technology.
Not convinced? Try adding up all the various augmentation costs for what is needed to get a rigger near a jarhead's dicepools, don't forget to figure in the stuff that allows the rigger to have 4 IPs and a MBW-analogue. Then try to make the drone autonomous, un-hackable and unspoofable via the Matrix. Factor in its inherent resistance to magic and the fact that corporations get multiple drone/vehicle bodies and relevant modifications at bulk production cost - and economically sticking a cloned brain in a CCU starts to make sense.

I'm going to clarify that my response focused the cost vs the benefits and advantages this technology entails to the corporations that produce them, not the advantages of jarhead technology for player characters - cyborgs were introduced primarily as NPCs with optional rules suggesting how to introduce them as PCs. At no point did we mentioned making the technology accessible on the streets any more than cybermancy.

I will also reiterate the bit about this being first-generation technology.

as far as magic resistance, a drone piloted by a rigger is just as resistant. corporate riggers can have the same access to drone bodies as a cyborg can also, so that's not a valid point.

In the context of my reply these were introduced as additional benefits, inherent to the use of drones.

many vehicles can have the rigger inside, thus making it autonomous and unhackable (just turn off wireless) exactly like a cyborg.

Vehicles yes, drones no. Part of the flexibility of cyborgs is their ability to use (adapted) drones bodies of most shapes and sizes. If a rigger wants to use a rotordrone or a Steel Lynx he does not have the option of making it unhackable and autonomous - in fact it is even vulnerable to simple jamming.

as to the cost of the separate components vs the CCU, bring it on. i've done this math before, and it worked out just like i said: a CCU is *not* economically worth all of it's separate built-in stuff.

we start with the commlink. response 4 signal 4 costs 2500, implanted makes it 4500, plus 0.2 essence.
implanted sim module (hot sim) 5,000 plus 0.2 essence
Control Rig costs 10,000 plus 0.5 essence
Simsense Booster 65,000 plus 0.5 essence
rating 5 skillwires + rigger adaptation: 12,500 plus 1 essence
rating 6 damage compensators 90,000 plus 0.6 essence (to be honest, i would not have bothered, but cyborgs do technically get one)

total: 187,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 2.9 essence

and now for the cyborg:
CCU: 250,000 and all but 0.1 essence (we'll call it 5.9 for the sake of argument)
cyborg adaptation (note: this is where the skillwires are, technically): 15,000

total: 265,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) plus 5.9 essence.

Yup. Correct as far as I can see. Does it sound like a cool proposition for the team rigger? No. Is it cost efficient? Probably not. It was never meant to be. Is it economically viable and potentially interesting for a corporation to field these things? Yes.

so then, the real question becomes: is the ability to not spend 1 IP on piloting tests plus being smaller than a dwarf worth the drawbacks of being a cyborg (expensive maintenance, insanity, poor skills outside of matrix/rigging other than by skillwires, and inability to install any additional 'ware) worth 78,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 3 essence? if there was a piece of cyber in existence that applied those mods, how many people would buy it? In comparison, how many people will settle for 3 IPs of shooting and 1 (specifically, the 4th) keeping the vehicle stable? heck, by the time IP 4 rolls around, the combat could very well be over.

This is where we have a disconnect. You're making the argument from a players standpoint. Jarheads were not introduced as a widespread augmentation technology, they're as rare as CZs and treated accordingly.
For a megacorp it's not just 78,000 nuyen, 3 Essence, 1 IP and the maintenance costs, it's whether those additional costs are worth a mission specialist that requires none of the training, salary, benefits, education, security checks, loyalty issues, compensation, etc of a corporate employee - all at production cost values (and not 250k nuyen) plus maintenance.

For a corporation, it equates to having an Otomo bodyguard (or three for that matter) with 4 IP, all the advantages listed above, any skills needed for the task at hand from the corp's databanks, completely unhackable, unjammable and autonomous, packing as much built-in armor and weaponry as a small tank with all the advantages of a metahuman form, more resilient and faster than most bodyguards/samurai,

Or the benefits of fielding 5 jarheads in Tominos with 5 rigged Tominos in a modern urban battlefield where EW, signal jamming and combat hacking is pervasive.

trust me, i am a bit of a powegamer and i do min/max on a regular basis, if i am not careful to the point of harming the roleplaying concept of the character (and, for the record, i would never blow that kind of money on a damage compensator either... instead, i would spend 50k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) less and, for the same availability even, pick up a pain editor, which will handle all the biofeedback damage i am going to be suffering in the vehicle (note that actually *having* a physical damage track at all is a leg up on the cyborg, as is being able to even take an action without being in a vehicle for that matter)

seriously, cyborgs are not worth the cost. they don't even come close. unless of course you've got some weird math up your sleeve that's telling you something different.

Worth the cost as a player character option? Or worth the cost to the megacorps who are fielding jarheads?

[hobgoblin]

hmm, i wonder what the outcome would in a encounter between a cyborg and a spirit...

[Synner]

In SR4 cyberzombies are the ultimate anti-magic weapon. Cyborgs are tough but only as tough as drones, while CZs have a number of built-in advantages over spirits and magic users that make them truly scary.

[Jaid]

This is where we have a disconnect. You're making the argument from a players standpoint. Jarheads were not introduced as a widespread augmentation technology, they're as rare as CZs and treated accordingly.
For a megacorp it's not just 78,000 nuyen, 3 Essence, 1 IP and the maintenance costs, it's whether those additional costs are worth a mission specialist that requires none of the training, salary, benefits, education, security checks, loyalty issues, compensation, etc of a corporate employee - all at production cost values (and not 250k nuyen) plus maintenance.

For a corporation, it equates to having an Otomo bodyguard (or three for that matter) with 4 IP, all the advantages listed above, any skills needed for the task at hand from the corp's databanks, completely unhackable, unjammable and autonomous, packing as much built-in armor and weaponry as a small tank with all the advantages of a metahuman form, more resilient and faster than most bodyguards/samurai,

Or the benefits of fielding 5 jarheads in Tominos with 5 rigged Tominos in a modern urban battlefield where EW, signal jamming and combat hacking is pervasive.


Worth the cost as a player character option? Or worth the cost to the megacorps who are fielding jarheads?

sure, the corps can just press-gang cyborgs. but then again, they can just grab some sinless bum off the streets, install a bunch of (substantially cheaper) cyber, and have the exact same thing. and just as much as the corp is only paying production cost for the CCU, they would only be paying production cost for the cyberware (given that the CCU is deltaware, i would think the fact that they don't have to tie up a delta clinic is a major factor also).

and again, like i said, if you can put a CCU in there, i can chop off some sinless guy's arms and legs, brainwash him, and train him to be a pilot for one of those same drones. it's not like he's gonna be any bigger than the CCU once you get rid of all the mass that allows him to be independant from the corporation after all. he doesn't need arms or legs to be a useful rigger, and it's very inexpensive to chop off someone's arms and legs. better yet, they can just use chemicals to stunt the growth of a bunch of sinless children, and remove their (not useful to you) extra bodymass, and you could probably fit *two* of them in.

all i'm saying is that for something as completely unscrupulous as the megas, it's silly to take the moral (relative) high ground (which isn't really very much of a moral high ground to begin with, all things considered). it is just so much cheaper to use the method that doesn't involve a CCU.

about the only thing i can agree with is that if you look at them as an experimental prototype, they could be worthwhile... after all, if it's going to reach a point where in 5 years it'll cost 5 essence, 25k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and only alphaware, then i could see the corps investing in this. but i don't particularly anticipate seeing them use it other than as a status symbol.

[Lyonheart]

As to my little sub-thread about cyborgs lacking an autopilot, I realized an Agent with a Control program could do it, so never mind.

[hobgoblin]

heh, this made me think of the gits:sac episode where the major is surfing while driving (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)