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> "Two-guns": Dual-SMG Wielder, How good can you actually do at it....?
Raven Bloodeyes
post Feb 14 2008, 05:34 AM
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So, I was motivated by all the talk against it (including my own) to see how well I could do with a two-gun wielding maniac...

So, here's a skeletal character sheet, assuming char gen initially, with improvements mentioned briefly at the end:

Race: Elf [30 BP]

Qualities:
-Ambidexterity [5 BP]
-Aptitude (Automatics) [10 BP]
-Genetic Heritage: Optimization (Agility) [10 BP]
-Adept [5 BP]
-Martial Art: Krav Maga (Take Aim -> free action) [5 BP]

Bioware: [total Ess: -1.8]
Synaptic Boosters (2) [32 BP in Y; 1 Ess]
Enhanced Articulation [8 BP in Y; 0.3 Ess]
{+1 to all Physical skills as a modifier...for Automatics and Dodge}
Muscle Toner (2) [14K Y, 0.4 Ess]
Reflex Recorder (Automatics) [2 BP in Y; 0.1 Ess]

Glasses/Goggles with Ultrasound sensors and Vision Mag
{w/Natural low light and ultrasound, should get the least vision penalties}
{also, with Vision Mag and Take Aim as a free action, Range modifiers for a single target are gone too}

{IF, Genetic Heritage doesn't cost 0.2 Ess, THEN also get these and change the glasses/goggles:
Cyberware: [total Ess: -0.4 --> -0.2 Ess]
Smartlink [0.1 Ess]
--even dual wielded it helps to change firing modes and know status of guns and all....
Ultrasound Sensor [6K Y, 0.3 Ess--cyber]
}


Agility: 2 -> 7(9) [50 BP, then augmented by Muscle Toner]
{Genetic Opt made getting to 7 cheaper and raised the Aug max to 12 to have room for improvement}

Automatics (SMGs): 7(9) use the Aptitude and specialize [30 BP]

Adept, so Magic from 1 --> 5 [40 BP], take the -2 Ess hit Mag: 3
Improved Ability (Automatics): 3 1.5 PP
Nimble Fingers: 0.5 PP {fast reloading and such}
Combat Sense: 2 1 PP {help with Dodging}

Then, Dodge (Ranged): 4(6) [18 BP]
Reaction 5(7) [40 BP]
...dump stat, Wil, Str, Bod, Log, Cha all at 1-3...
..decent Int for Perception... count on dodging for damage...

All this gives:

9+7+1+3 (Agi+Skill+Refl_Rec+Improv'd_Abil) = 20 base pool

Split: 10/10
Modifiers: +1+2 each (Specialztn & Enh Articul)

For 13/13 with two SMGs

OR 23 dice with one of them! (25 w/smartlink)

With Dodge(Ranged) of 4+2+2+1+5+2 = 16! [Skill + Spec + Combat Sense + Enh Articul + Reac + Synap Boosters]

Now also use these guns: [~1 BP each in cost, including ammo]
Two Ingram Smartguns with... (using Arsenal mods)
--Upgrade to Gas Vent 3 [1 SLOT]
--Heavy Barrel [1 SLOT]
--Personalized Grip [1 SLOT]
--Extended Clip [1 SLOT]
--With EX explosive rounds!
For: 6P -1AP BF/FA RC: 5(6) 40© <12R ~4000 Y each...
{Can do burst fire with both guns with both simple actions and have no recoil penalties at all...}
{Then, can readily only shoot with one of them (either) on Full Auto, and have plenty of dice to use with the uncompensated recoil}
{Even going two-handed full auto is a legitimate option without loosing all his dice....}

Assuming Bod, Str, Wil, Log all at 2, Cha at 3 and Int at 4, leaves 35 BP to spend @ char gen without any negative qualities, so...
with 35 BP in negative qualities, you'd still have 70 BP to spend after all of the above, on:
-Perception, Infiltration, some Athletics, and odds and ends to tidy him up....
-If negative qualities are maxed out, up his Edge a bit to 3-5 range... to pull out the stops with both guns...


SO, one could spend the 25 BP to up his Agility once more for another die: 14/13 and 24 (26 w/smartlink) for two-handed, one-handed, respectively, even at Chargen.

LATER:
ALSO, upping Muscle Toners and/or grabbing a Suprathyroid Gland (and upping Magic by one) can max out Agility to 12 to get to 15/14 or 26 (28 with smartlink).
Any other bonuses I missing?!? Whatcha think?!?
--maybe make it Gymnastic Dodge, so a Synthacardium can one day add +2 dodge dice also...

Should we can 'em "Two-guns" and make it a female elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In summary: At Char gen, 13/13 pools for two 6P -1AP SMGs, w/ no recoil (if using 4 shots of burst fire), no range penalties, and minimized vision penalties, while still having 3 IPs... Did I miss anything? Did I do anything wrong?
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Sombranox
post Feb 14 2008, 06:06 AM
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Good gods your dice pool scares me a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If you can squeeze a str 4 (6) out somehow, then you can actually do recoil-less long/short bursts if I'm not mistaken.

Colt Cobras Z118
w/ Barrel-mounted Gas Vent 3
w/ Personalized Grips
w/ Skinlink
w/ Auto-adjusting Weight


Str 6 gives 1 recoil + 1 from grip + 3 from GV3 + 3 from autoweight (1 on first burst + 2 on second burst) = 6/2

So long/short is -5/-3 recoil

5 is absorbed, 1 point left over from the first . Second is absorbed by the extra point + 2.

Fear the barrage of 18 bullets at those scary dice pools.
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Sombranox
post Feb 14 2008, 06:23 AM
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Also just realized. Enhanced Articulation only adds a +1 to physical active skills (stealth and athletics and the like), not combat skills (which are in a separate group now sadly). So 13/12.

Still ungodly scary, given that my semi-equivalent ambidextrous combat hacker build I've been playing with only manages like 9/9. Then again, he can full parry for 20 dice at the same time as making a 14 dice attack and is a beast at AR hacking, but still. Makes me want to see if I can squeeze him into an elf build somehow.


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krakjen
post Feb 14 2008, 06:26 AM
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QUOTE (Raven Bloodeyes @ Feb 14 2008, 06:34 AM) *
Should we can 'em "Two-guns" and make it a female elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Make her a crazy chinese chick with a tribal tattoo on the shoulder and call her "Two-Hands"
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Raven Bloodeyes
post Feb 14 2008, 06:30 AM
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OOOOH! Shiny! I like that tricked out Colt, RC: 7 on an SMG....awesome!

If you let Dodge and Reaction drop a smidge, and took that 35 in negative qualities, and dumped a few other attribs to 1, you could get him up to 6 Str without any 'ware for 55 BP...

Now you got me thinking we should just make those AV rounds and have him mow down Citymasters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) .(....ok, ok, that's still a bit of a stretch, but the image is cool, and he'd have a fighting chance at it at least...)


...rats on the Enhanced Articulation....that actually makes it 12/12, as the modifier I thought it gave would have been added after the split....drat....
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Daier Mune
post Feb 14 2008, 06:32 AM
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thats pretty good. of course, you can be rolling 17/16 if you were using Force 2 custom-gripped weapon foci, and utilizing the Multi-Strike manuver from martial arts. and doing a double attack + finishing move double attack, the target would be at a -4 defense modifier (assuming they themselves are not dual wielding) before taking wound modifiers into account.
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Raven Bloodeyes
post Feb 14 2008, 06:37 AM
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@Daier Mune, yeah, that'd be sick, but requires melee ranges, two SMGs are long range without a range penalty is pretty nuts even at 12/12
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hobgoblin
post Feb 14 2008, 06:44 AM
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hmm, i wonder what a cyborg would be capable off...
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Raven Bloodeyes
post Feb 14 2008, 06:49 AM
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Can't cyborgs have multiple weapons mounts and all too....yeesh

I had thought about tracer rounds for "Two-guns" as well, but even with Full Auto it's only +3/+3, which still doesn't break even with the +1DV, -1AP of the EX explosive rounds.... is that thinking right?
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hobgoblin
post Feb 14 2008, 06:55 AM
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well as it all hinge on agility, and cyborgs seems to beat the elf at that game...
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Adarael
post Feb 14 2008, 07:38 AM
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I would suggest Cyborgs be left out of the comparison based purely on the fact that you could have a cyborg in a body that was - theoretically, anyway - a giant ball of SMGs and he could fire them all at once, and then agility wouldn't matter at all.

Seems kinda like bringing a rigger and his semi to the "who can do the most impact damage without magic" contest.
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hobgoblin
post Feb 14 2008, 08:07 AM
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well, if we limit the cyborg to handheld weaponry in a anthroform "shell"?
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Glyph
post Feb 14 2008, 08:10 AM
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Someone already pointed out that the enhanced articulation doesn't work for automatics and dodge. The reflex recorder also counts towards the skill x 1.5 cap, so you can't have it and improved ability: 3. You can either drop it, or drop improved ability to 2, since you can improve a skill by 3 points max.

On the positive side, nimble fingers actually only costs 0.25 power points (it's quick draw that costs 0.50).
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Stahlseele
post Feb 14 2008, 09:37 AM
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with aptitude he could get his skill max to 7/11 if it's still being rounded up . . if it's rounded down it's still 7/10
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samuelbeckett
post Feb 14 2008, 09:44 AM
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If you can squeeze in 15BP for Martial Arts: Krav Maga then you can draw both SMGs as a free action, add an extra +1 Die from Take Aim as an free action, and reduce the Melee Combat penalty to -2 Dice.

So provided you beat them on initiative, it doesn't really matter if your opponent is 2 feet away, they are still probably toast...
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Narmio
post Feb 14 2008, 09:44 AM
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Alternatively, forget about the "firing both at once" thing and just use the two weapons to get two long bursts. You'll do a ton more damage, in fact if you can handle the recoil you will outdamage an alpha firing a long and then short burst. Of course, you have to invest in the Ambidex trait, so fair's fair. I'd take two long bursts from this character's full dice pool over four bursts from half any day of the week.

I have a character who does this with machine pistols (the one that's capable of FA) and two cyberarm gyromounts. Slightly less damage for a very badass "I've watched Equilibrium too many times" feeling.
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Rasumichin
post Feb 14 2008, 12:04 PM
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QUOTE (Raven Bloodeyes @ Feb 14 2008, 07:49 AM) *
Can't cyborgs have multiple weapons mounts and all too....yeesh


Not only cyborgs, basically, anyone with a full cyberarm can have one.
They are like smart weapons platforms without the recoil compensation and hold anything up to an SMG.

There's also a scarier version for cybertorsos, you can put anything up to an LMG on that mother, but it eats up a lot of capacity (from memory, i'd guess 7 points).

Hm...dual cyberarms with maxed out AGI, high STR and internal gyros for recoil compensation and weapons platforms might be too expensive...or aren't they?
One should take a look at that option...


BTW, don't take Genetic Heritage if you don't absolutely have to!
I cannot stretch this enough!
It's not worth the BP you have to sacrifice for it.
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Rasumichin
post Feb 14 2008, 12:39 PM
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Damn, i looked it up and external weapon mounts do not only take up [7], they also have an availybility of 16F.
So, no quadruple SMG goodness at chargen.

Anyway, here's the deal on a couple of arms for my approach towards a SMG monstrosity build.

Asuming elf as metatype, one could use the optimized cyberlimb option to bring AGI up to 7, STR to 6 and BOD to 4 (with an availability of 12 overall, otherwise, one could also push BOD to unaugmented maximum and add 4 points of bulk modification).

The remaining full capacity of [15] could be used like this :

-gyromount [4]
-AGI +3, bringing it up to (10) [3]

This would leave us with [8], either to be spared to add external weapon mounts later on or for other goodies as desired.

Costs with the listed options, not including the external mounts, who would cost 2500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , would run up to 33.750 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per arm or 67500 a pair.
Probably too expensive to combine it with a synaptic accelerator, but it leaves enough money for an alpha rebo, a memory recorder and various biotech goodies, such as the ever-useful trauma damper.
Plus, you get AGI (10), higher STR, room for nifty extras, one additional box for your physical damage monitor and more recoil compensation.
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cx2
post Feb 14 2008, 12:52 PM
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Small point, to use a smartlink you also need a image/display link (forgot what the bugger's called these days). Cybereyes have these built in naturally but the retinal mods I don't think do.

Otherwise that's a scary build, but probably not much use outside of a fight down in the barrens.
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Ryu
post Feb 14 2008, 01:03 PM
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I´ll second the notion of two long bursts instead of four short bursts. Even if there is recoil. There is no uncompensated recoil with your SMGs. Also, you do not need to split the DP, and therefore do not need to crunch it as much.

Max. efficiency builds will have to consider two combat shotguns (optional rule for 1-handed usage from Arsenal). It´s only a -2 DP mod.

The genetic heritage advantage only takes away the monetary price (IIRC what Synner said, would need to check the Augmentation Q&A).

How about a skeletal build for those who actually intent to use two long-burst automatic weapons:
- two IPs should be sufficient, as you get four recoil-less long bursts (see weapon below)
- while Agility is one of the better attributes to max, it is still not worth it. So lets take Agi at the softcap, +2 from Muscle Aug.
- Ambidexterity is a given
- Automatic Weapons are a given, with recoil reduction and FA mode being the main concern.
- Dodge is a given, you´ll draw the remaining enemy fire like no tomorrow. Also, your selection of cover is much more limited.

Evil note: If they can suck the -2 for the offhand, most automatic weapon users can pull it off. It´s not as if ambidexterity was required.
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Stahlseele
post Feb 14 2008, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE
Otherwise that's a scary build, but probably not much use outside of a fight down in the barrens

Yeah so? *g*
that is more or less exaclty what this character is meant for as far as i can tell ^^
Also there's still no rules for really MORE ARMS on a Body . . and none for mounting close-combat Weapons on those weapon mounts either, so none of those kali thingies are buildable ;_;
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Prime Mover
post Feb 14 2008, 02:22 PM
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Could be wrong but you mention using EX ammo which after errata is +1DV. After Errata EX EX is now needed to get the +1DV and -1AP.
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Sombranox
post Feb 14 2008, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 14 2008, 09:03 AM) *
I´ll second the notion of two long bursts instead of four short bursts. Even if there is recoil. There is no uncompensated recoil with your SMGs. Also, you do

How about a skeletal build for those who actually intent to use two long-burst automatic weapons:


See my twin colt TZ118's in the second post.

Why settle for two long bursts when you can have two long bursts AND two short bursts, all without a single point of recoil?


That aside, with a two gun build, it's almost pointless if you can't completely soak the recoil because of the rule about uncompensated recoil from one weapon affecting the other weapon when two-gun firing.

By that, if you have -1 recoil left on both guns, both will get a -2. If you have -2, -4. And so on.

Of course, 8 points of recoil is enough to do a long/short and that's just str 6 + grip + GV3 + auto-adjusting weight.
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Sombranox
post Feb 14 2008, 04:15 PM
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Ryu: Ignore my last. I just realized you meant hyper-velocity two long bursts.

I haven't figured out a way to do it that's viable. You need 11 points of recoil to manage it without recoil (which from my above post is still bad due to the doubling effect)

If you had a str 14 monster (3) with grip (1), GV3 (3), and auto-adjusting weight (3), that's only 10.

If you got a loving GM who'd let you go over the limit of 6 mod slots on the guns, you could add Heavy Barrel for 11. Put these mods on the Ingram Supermach and go to town throwing out 24 bullets per round without flinching.

Bah, scratch that. Heavy barrel only adds to full bursts. I thought it was to any full auto, which includes long bursts. Bleh. So yeah. stuck at 10. Which means at least a -2 mod to fire two hypervelocity bursts.



Edited for str 14, not 12. And then to counteract my own use of heavy barrel
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Ryu
post Feb 14 2008, 05:08 PM
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@Sombranox: No need to retract your point, I was talking of normal long bursts. You may only fire two weapons with a simple action, FA takes a complex action; if you want to do that by RAW, please quote the rule for that. (I think they included "simple action" because they wanted to keep FA out). For the single long burst: Only uncompensated recoil counts for the other weapon, and you can do that easily. Two long bursts per weapon end up recoil-less on the first burst. Then, max. RC comp - your weapon is illegal (autoweight+foregrip, see pg.148, we cut the foregrip anyway)

Second burst is 11-
Base: Ingram SuperMach 100 (base design RC: 3)
Mod: Gasvent 3 (illegal as barrel mount, so there you go)
Personalised Grip 1
Hip Pad 1
Heavy barrel 1
= 9.

Cyberarm-Gyromount 3 (one per arm)

Done already. Still, in my opinion this is illegal because you may only fire two weapons with a single action.
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