Simsense as a weapon via the matrix, Yay more difficult questions!! Options

[Abbandon]

IMPORTANT!!!!!! This has NOTHING to do with damage tracks!!! Do not freaking bring them up!! Just stick to the questions and dont go into some ego trip rant describing crap nobody asked about!

Secondly, I am typing out my thought process, so sorry if its jumbled or confusing..


Ok...OBVIOUSLY your only getting simsense if your using a sim module..
Augmented reality = can be either no simsense or cold sim
VR can be either cold or hot.

Hmm can a hacker hack without simsense?? What is he using to do that? AR glove(or buttons on the commlink?) and something with image link. He uses his ar glove to use programs?

You average hacker is using a trode net right?

Ok so your average run of the mill hacker is using a sim module with cold sim? Ok heres the Scenario:

A bad guy has hacked into your commlink(reason doesnt matter). You are alerted by this fact by your trusty agent named Eyeball. This bad guy isnt part of any shadowrun or anything its just some punk wannabe hacker and so you decide your going to show him who is boss....

-How would you go about....well I guess the first thing we wanna do is find out if he is running cold or hot or has simsense at all?? Any programs to find that out??
-Second how could we send his ass some simsense data so that he would experience it?? Would we have to goto his node and edit(load the simsense) something?
-How would we store simsense signals so that we could load them into other people's nodes or whatever??

My real question is what would it take to have a simsense recording of something unpleasent like an annoying sound, the smell of vomit, the sensations of anal sex be forced onto somebody else lol.

Also how would you go about mixing simsense data into attack programs? Would you just make it some computer+software(x) extended test? How long of an interval to do something like that on the fly like while your standing in line for the movies or something? Or do you think it should takes days and weeks to write up the new program?

If your in cold sim there is nothing you can do to stop from getting smells, sounds, and feelings from simsense right? It just keeps it at a certain level of sensation?

I have to think when one person gets pissed at another they would try to do something like this or sick perverts would mess with women and children in this way, or two romantically involved people would use this as a way of "phone sex"/"cyber sex". I'd imagine like EVERYONE would experience something unpleasent once or twice relating to this. I just want to turn it into a weapon lol. both just as a distraction with the simsense sensations alone and mixed with black programs to cause actual damage.

[Abbandon]

Wouldnt emotion simsense attacks be good for social interactions possably(extrmely low chance of happening any time it would be beneficial). You could hack a security gaurds commlink and make him scared, or sexually attracted to you. You could slip a trodenet on a prisoner you have captured and with your commlink that is hotsimmed make him feel like he was being tortured or drowned or burnt alive or raped or beaten or just scared out of his mind??

Hmmm.

Instead of having a seduction skill of 6 you could upload seduction 6 "feeling" into the guard lol. Instead of having to specialize in torture to actually inflict wounds on a target you could just make him have rating 6 torture sensations... These simsense attacks could be used as replacements to social skills..

[Kanada Ten]

Everything up to inflciting damage would be treated like exactly like a Spam Zone, which include simsense feed (and simsense includes visual data to cause distractions in users with only image links). Which means that, yes, you could stop getting feed in the same way one stops getting spam: turn off, at the very least.

Black IC cause "real" damage by using simsense.

[djinni]

what's to stop you from removing the inhibitor and rerouting his own senses into BTL levels?

[Sombranox]

what's to stop you from removing the inhibitor and rerouting his own senses into BTL levels?

Since it takes a logic+hardware(10, 1 hour) test to convert a cold sim into a hot, I don't think it's something that could be done to someone on the fly.

Now, if you sneak in while he's sleeping and tinker on his commlink, he could have a nasty surprise on jacking in to it next, but that's a bit more work than just flipping a switch.

[Kanada Ten]

what's to stop you from removing the inhibitor and rerouting his own senses into BTL levels?

It's a hardware test, which means if you have them captured, fine.

However, I'm not convinced that simsense is indistinguishable from the real world sensations and emotions. We've always played that one can tell it's simfeed. It might be pleasant, and effect how you behave, but you know its coming through simsense.

Rewriting people's knowsofts and linguasofts is another interesting way to affect them

[Slymoon]

So you basically want to be able to create and force install/run a BTL to someone remotely on the fly neh?

Have at it in your game, but in mine which is not Matrixrun I wouldn't allow it.

[Dashifen]

Hmm can a hacker hack without simsense?? What is he using to do that? AR glove(or buttons on the commlink?) and something with image link. He uses his ar glove to use programs? You average hacker is using a trode net right?

Sure, that could work. Without simsence a hacker would only be able to use AR, but there are rules for hacking in AR so I'd have no problem with it. I think that the average hacker is probably using a datajack but a trode net would work, too.

A bad guy has hacked into your commlink(reason doesnt matter). You are alerted by this fact by your trusty agent named Eyeball. This bad guy isnt part of any shadowrun or anything its just some punk wannabe hacker and so you decide your going to show him who is boss....

-How would you go about....well I guess the first thing we wanna do is find out if he is running cold or hot or has simsense at all?? Any programs to find that out??
-Second how could we send his ass some simsense data so that he would experience it?? Would we have to goto his node and edit(load the simsense) something?
-How would we store simsense signals so that we could load them into other people's nodes or whatever??

1. An analyze test would get you that sort of information, but you might need to hack his commlink depending on his commlink's mode.
   
   
2. Well, his ass would probably need some form of touch link .... oh. I see; you weren't being literal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Anyway, all you'd probably need to do is make an Edit test to send the information to his commlink and then I suppose some GMs might force you to run the program on his commlink if it's in passive or hidden mode since those modes aren't supposed to be accepting incoming connections willy-nilly.
   
   
3. Simsense recordings can be burned onto chips (like BTL or even just normal sim-chips) and I'd allow them to be stored electronically, too, so this sort of transfer could take place. Hell, if virtual tutorsofts can be downloaded, I'd think the latest hijinks of Huggy the Love Troll should be, too.

Also how would you go about mixing simsense data into attack programs? Would you just make it some computer+software(x) extended test? How long of an interval to do something like that on the fly like while your standing in line for the movies or something? Or do you think it should takes days and weeks to write up the new program?

Firstly, I wouldn't allow an Attack program to send simsense. That's the purview of Blackout and Blackhammer -- they're sending both an attack and viral code that inflicts damage on the hacker due to that simsense. In SR3 (and probably in Unwired) there were a variety of offensive programs that existed at a level between Attack and Blackout/Blackhammer that would do damage to the equipment and could even send psychotropic suggestions to the hacker. They'll probably all come back in Unwired.

Until then, I'd let a person send simsense data to a target hacker with an Edit test. I'd still let that test be blocked by the opponent in cybercombat as normal. If you wanted to write your own program to do it with a specialized purpose, then you'd have to write the software. There are intervals for programming in the book on p. 240.

If your in cold sim there is nothing you can do to stop from getting smells, sounds, and feelings from simsense right? It just keeps it at a certain level of sensation?

I have to think when one person gets pissed at another they would try to do something like this or sick perverts would mess with women and children in this way, or two romantically involved people would use this as a way of "phone sex"/"cyber sex". I'd imagine like EVERYONE would experience something unpleasent once or twice relating to this.

They'll only get smells if they have a olfactory link (is there even such a thing?), sounds with a sound link, etc. If they don't have the appropriate gear to receive an interpret the simsense signals, then nothing happens. Perverts could mess with others like this, but it wouldn't work on everyone and the recipient could probably end the simsense relatively easily. Simsense SPAM is a pretty good idea, though, I like it.

As for romantic couples using it to enhance their relationship in a Sex 2.0 sort of way, that's cool. If people can get their rocks off in virtual worlds online today, I don't see why they can do so in 2070.

I just want to turn it into a weapon lol. both just as a distraction with the simsense sensations alone and mixed with black programs to cause actual damage.

The biggest thing I've done as a hacker is made AR objects that are completely opaque and sent them to others with an edit test. Gives the effect of putting a big black wall in between them and their targets. If they're not actively defending their commlink, the Firewall might be the only thing between them and this sort of thing. Or, just send distracting lights and colors at them. Either way, it's relatively easy to screw with people just in AR without simsense if you want to.

Wouldnt emotion simsense attacks be good for social interactions possably(extrmely low chance of happening any time it would be beneficial). You could hack a security gaurds commlink and make him scared, or sexually attracted to you. You could slip a trodenet on a prisoner you have captured and with your commlink that is hotsimmed make him feel like he was being tortured or drowned or burnt alive or raped or beaten or just scared out of his mind??

Hmmm.

Instead of having a seduction skill of 6 you could upload seduction 6 "feeling" into the guard lol. Instead of having to specialize in torture to actually inflict wounds on a target you could just make him have rating 6 torture sensations... These simsense attacks could be used as replacements to social skills..

All of this is probably fine, but it might get you noticed in the shadows since you're basically raping someone's emotions and forcing them to feel what you want them to feel. I don't think the average security guard is going to stand for it. Plus, all they need to do is turn their system to hidden mode and/or disconnect you (hell, they could just turn off the commlink dumping you) so it's not the sort of thing that's going to work when someone has the chance to notice what's going on.

As for the prisoner situation, I've long assumed that maximum security prisons just hook their prisoners up to simsense feeds and feed them intravenously to keep them alive. No riots, no problems, hell not even any requests since everything's happening online. All the guards have blackout programs to use as necessary and the prisoners don't even have the rights to run software on their systems.

As for replacement for social skills, I wouldn't allow it. I might allow them as enhancements to social skills, but you'd still need some level of the skill in order to be most effective with this sort of tool.

[Kanada Ten]

They'll only get smells if they have a olfactory link (is there even such a thing?), sounds with a sound link, etc. If they don't have the appropriate gear to receive an interpret the simsense signals, then nothing happens.

A sim module replaces the need for a touchlink, imagelink, olfactory link, sound link, etc.

[Lagomorph]

Here's my rambling on this subject:

Once they've established a link to your commlink, you guys can share data. You'd have to counter hack his comm in order to flip cold to hot (if it's already hot modified, otherwise, get some nanites to do it for you!).

I always thought you'd be able to tell what mode some body was in (AR/Cold/Hot) by seeing how much bandwidth their peripherials were using. (if you're fighting a rigger, intercept traffic on his drones to see which one he is in, then nuke it)

For prison scenarios I thought it simsens was already in heavy use in book fluff, both as torture and as a pacifier of unruly prisoners. It's hard to try and kill guards when you're forced to think about all the pleasant things in life, or scared shitless because they're giant 19 headed chuthulu zombies.

It's never really specified if you can tell the difference between reallife and simsense, I think I'd say that you could, so you'd know if you're getting sense hacked. I'd think simsense is life-like but not real life. (consider that life is a infinite resolution simsense picture, then simsense is a non-infinite resolution simsense, life would always be "better" in that case)

[Dashifen]

A sim module replaces the need for a touchlink, imagelink, olfactory link, sound link, etc.

Hrm ... I never thought of it that way but you could be right. I always simply saw a sim module as the device that translates simsense into some other form of information that the body can understand. Without the appropriate supportive hardware that information has no where to go. In other words, if you don't have a touch link the sim module may have received and interpreted tactile information, but your body wouldn't be set up to understand and feel that information.

[Abbandon]

Yeah i agree you dont need the different links. The simsense signals are just making your brain THINK stuff is happening. You think your getting butt raped by Huggy the Troll.

And by prisoners...I meant people you capture on a run lol. Knock out a gaurd, slap a trode net on him and wake him up and then torture/seduce him into giving you passwords and stuff. I can see how that use of simsense would be more of a modifier to social tests instead of a replacement..

Oh about flipping between cold and sim...some of you guys said hardware test but Im pretty sure I read thats is a free or simple action to flip between them once you have messed with your sim module and made it possable to hot sim(theres your only hardware test). Yeah pg229 SWITCHING MODES. Its a free action.

[KCKitsune]

OK if the frakker is coming at you in Hot Sim, send him a simsense track from a snuff film about a person being lit on fire. We know they have to be out there.

If he's coming at you in Cold Sim, send him the track from Elmo the Emo Bitch. Make him so sad that he wants to cack himself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

If he's not using Sim at all you start cluttering up his image link, and have every program launch. Slows him to a crawl, slows his reaction time, and then while his 'Link is shitting itself, you hack the frakker 'till it becomes a melted pile of plastic and optical chip bits.

[Abbandon]

Thats what im thinking. That there are people out there(kind of like the movie Hostel) who put a simrig on a victom or install one and then do all these nasty things to the person and then just recover the simsense data afterwards and sell it on the blackmarket. You could get your hands on any kind of nasty horrendous things and inflict it on others if they allow simsense.

[Kanada Ten]

Oh about flipping between cold and sim...some of you guys said hardware test but Im pretty sure I read thats is a free or simple action to flip between them once you have messed with your sim module and made it possable to hot sim(theres your only hardware test). Yeah pg229 SWITCHING MODES. Its a free action.

Sure, if his sim module is hot modded, I suppose you could switch it once you gain control of the device; though make sure you lock his status icon before you do, so he doesn't notice the little green network turning to radioactive red, and then feed BTL simsense into his commlink. However, he can fight it without any kind of test, unless you have black IC (or blackhammer programs) as the rules will not allow you to inflict actual damage otherwise. Just distraction penalty.

[edit] As you note, it's a free action to switch modes, so you're looking at one IP pass before the target shuts it off completely.

[Backgammon]

This has been debated before, but I hve some new thoughts on it.

If the target has a HotSim module operating (I'm skipping the whole 'how would you turn it on if it'S not part), you can in theory send him a BTL-level simsense feed to mess him up in innumarable ways.

HOWEVER, this is basically what Black ICE is - a unholy BTL simsense spike.

But Black ICE attack programs come in ratings, do they not. This therefore means that it is impossible for a hacker to "improvise" a BTL-level feed. You need to code it as an actual attack program.

In fact, a HotSim attack to make that guard fall in love with you is basically psychotropic black ice, end of story.

[Abbandon]

Black IC overclock your senses though to the point of causing pain. I just want to overlay a sensory experience. It wont necessarily cause any mental or physical pain.

Joe Blow is walking along in a mall and getting blitzed by simsense signals from the sex shops, the food shops, the movie theatres and he switches them off. Now he wasnt getting blasted with black IC. He didnt suffer any mental or physical injuries. He just smelled pizza, tasted beer, felt big huge squishy boobs(among other things), and felt fear, adrenaline, comedy.

I totally agree you can not modify a cold sim module into a hot sim module by hacking. That is a hardware thing. But if the dudes sim mod is cracked but he is running it cold you can take a free action and flip it to hot while your in that node. But that is only something I would care about for my custom programs that are a simsense feed + black ic style attack.

[Backgammon]

Regular Simsense spam is already covered by the Distracted modifier from being in a Spam Zone (it's in the rulebook somewhere, says "gm's discretion")

"Casual" or "on the fly" BTL Simsense spam is impossible (per my previous argument, anyway). Rules-wise, it would equate to you being attacked by a Blackhammer program (well, the one that causes Stun, I forget the name). Describe it how you like, the effect and mechanics are the same.

Not that I'm saying it's a bad idea to have random Rating 1-2 Blackhammer attacks on players in especially evil spam zones. In fact, I wholeheartedly support it. The rules for psychotropic Black ICE aren't out yet, right? That would be even more appropriate imo.

[Cthulhudreams]

There is a big thread about black hammering someone's mum that will cast many views onto a hotly debated subject (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Abbandon]

@Backgammon I can see how an attack program with a successful cybercombat test would be a delivery method for what im talking about, In fact its what i suggested if you also wanted to inflict damage.

However that can not be the only delivery method.. You have advertising signals and BTL chips both giving people simsense sensations without using attack programs. I get that the BBB says its just a modifier. I dont give a crap if it is a -10 modifier or +25. All I am trying to accomplish is hacking into some dudes commlink and forcing simsense sensations upon him.

Why? for fluff!! Just to screw with the guy who is trying to screw with me.

[Kanada Ten]

There is a big thread about black hammering someone's mum that will cast many views onto a hotly debated subject (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just read the premise to the thread, but the safety seems obvious. Wireless cold sim module hardwired to wired datajack or trode as standard equipment for pleb users; all (wireless) data would thus have to go through the cold ASIST. The whole "trode ray" is nonsuch per RAW.

[hobgoblin]

heh, i wish there was a way to leave a reboot loop in the comlink.
insert it, then crash the comlink. that should keep him occupied for a while.

btw, the dennu coil anime has a interesting episode. there one of the kids start sending some of the others repeating spam mails.
kinda like those never-ending web popups that would open one or more new ones on close using javascript.

btw, there was a tall tale in emergence about a group of virtual tourists that got hammered while using cold sim.
if unwired will provide some kind of cold sim attack tho, dont know.

hell, i just hope that unwired bring back the degradation attacks, so that one can burn out a comlinks response rating or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[mfb]

the thing with simsense is, it's entirely voluntary. if you don't like what you're seeing, you can log out or disconnect. the only thing that could force a user to accept simsense data would be maybe black IC--in previous editions, at least, black IC could prevent you from logging out or even pulling the plug; i don't recall offhand whether it still can in SR4. it'd be nice to have a program option or something that can be included in attack programs, to explain that effect.

[hobgoblin]

still available in SR4.

using AR makes you immune tho, making the wired reflex AR hacker that much more interesting.

[Backgammon]

However that can not be the only delivery method.. You have advertising signals and BTL chips both giving people simsense sensations without using attack programs.

Yes, because those signals were authorised by the commlink. Somebody who wants to force feed you negative BTL signals is going to have to "attack" your commlink, meaning dupe it into thinking the signal is authorised, overcome the commlink's defense methods. This is handled via hacking as per current rules.