Help with Ghouls, any SR4 rules for them? Options

[KCKitsune]

Elves have the better PR department. And they aren't cannibals.

Aren't they? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Tell that to all the White Wolf players.

-Frank

Mage was the only White Wolf game worth playing. Werewolf, you were fighting a lost war... kinda depressing. Vampire... oh yes, let's play a bunch of emo bitches whining about how unfair everything is... and eat humans along the way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Grinder]

What in "Daisy Eaters" don't you understand? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Rasumichin]

But those characters all have the most fucked up stats, like, ever.

I think most archetypes in previous editions where even less functional rules-wise (like the SR3 street sam crippling himself with 2 in that edition mechanically worthless cyberarms).
Still, SR4 archetypes are far from being optimized.
Plus, not one of them is build around a ghoul template, so any good builds resulting from combining an archetype and the abovementioned ghoul stats are purely coincidental (such as the bounty hunter and sprawl ganger examples).

It's no surprise ghouls suck at all charisma-based tasks and have to face serious drawbacks when taking up heavily logic-dependant roles in a group, even though their reaction bonus might be utilized in some rigger builds.
Also, yes, there are huge disadvantages in the fields of cybering up, using ranged weapons and being magically active (which otherwise would be the most interesting option for any minmaxed ghoul, since it is a workaround for the drawbacks of being dual-natured).

The question is wether there are builds that utilize a ghouls massive attribute advantages to make up for the drawbacks.

Obviously, none of the archetypes provides a sufficient answer to that question, even though the given examples already hint at synergy effects with a bunch of skills that are both useful and highly fitting for a ghoul concept (like tailing, tracking, survival, asensing, and disguise, plus stuff like dodge and certain physical skills).

Any decent ghoul mage would have to take an intuition-based tradition which, in combination with the +2 to willpower, could make up for the magic loss, depending on how far you want to max him out.
He would not quite reach a genetically and biologically augmented dwarf (but then, who does?), but besides that, could be a well-rounded caster, saving more than the ghoul BP on physical stats a mage also needs, like constitution and some reaction.
A secondary caster who also serves as tracker and astral spy/combatant might be the most interesting option here.

As far as pure combat optimization is concerned, a biosam could yield interesting results, depending on how much ware you want to sink in him and how expensive it would be to buy off the blindness handicap.
Close-combat builds could also be interesting, but they are not partially overpowered to begin with.
For defensive potential, ghouls certainly rock, having all in all unparalleled bonuses to all 3 relevant attributes.

Adepts face the problem of decreased magic, too.
If you wanted to go for astral perception anyway, this evens out a bit, leaving you only with the ever-present problem of duality.

[paws2sky]

@Frank

My initial impression is that the body modifier is a smidge too high, as is the BP cost. Otherwise, looks about right for a human ghoul.

I guess I'm going to have to go back through by pre-SR3 books and refresh myself on Ghouls because I have the ghoul PC rules for SR3 Companion stuck in my head. I keep thinking of ghouls as a template added to an existing metatype, rather than an individual sub-species (to borrow a concept from D&D 3.x).

@Grinder

Ghouls are "cool" because they're tragic. Not emo (like WoD Vampires), just tragic. Since this is a short run game, my player wants a tragic character. If the campaign continues past the initial run (about 3 to 4 sessions), he will probably switch to something else.

Also, I suppose its worth nothing that Daisy is a girl's name.

[Grinder]

The concept of a tragic character is indeed cool, even though I didn't think of a Ghoul. But I can understand the motivation of your player to try a Ghoul-character out in a short-lived game.

And yeah, I know about that Daisy thing. Daisy Duck and all that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[paws2sky]

So, between going away party planning, setup, and execution, I managed to sit down with my SR books, some printouts and such this weekend to come up with the following. I've added in some descriptive text to account for the wild variation between ghouls presented in SR2/SR1 Critters sections and the Ghoul PC in the SR3 Companion. I'm aware that this is non-canon, but it should serve well enough until SR4 version of the companion comes out.

Ghoul (+20 BP)
Note: Ghoul is a template applied to the "base metatype," in other words, the character's original metatype. There are human, dwarf, elf, ork, and troll ghouls. The rules presented here are for the more intelligent varieties.

Debate still rages over the origins of ghouls; some claim it the condition comes from the so-called Kreiger Strain of HMHVV, while others claim that ghouls are created through a process similar to goblinization or SURGE. Still others belive that there may be multiple factors at work, speculating that there may be several very similar, but distinct, species. Since concerns for ghoul origins and welfare have only surfaced relatively recently, the amount of research dedicated to determining the truth has been limited.

The following modifications are applied to characters with the Ghoul template:

Attributes
Bod x+2 / x+2
Agi x / x
Rea x+1 / x+1
Str x+2 / x+2
Cha x-1 / x-1
Int x+2 / x+2
Log 1 / x-1
Wil x+1 / x+1
Edg 1 / 6
Ess 5
Mag 1 / 5
Ini x+3 / x+3
Notes: Attributes marked with an "x" use the starting value for the character's base metatype, modified as above.

Qualities

• Allergy (sunlight, mild): -2 dice on all tests while exposed to sunlight.
• Blindness: -6 dice on non-astral vision tests.
• Dietary Restriction (metahuman flesh, weekly): Ghouls must consume approximately 1% of their body weight in raw metahuman flesh every week or begin to suffer the effects of starvation.
• Dual Natured: Ghouls are dual natured beings, active on both the astral and physical planes. This has a number of advantages and flaws (see the Critter Powers rules for more information). Ghouls may learn the Assessing and Astral Combat skills. Ghouls possess latent magic abilities, and may buy up their Magic rating, though they must also buy the Magician, Mystic Adept, or Adept qualities to learn any magical abilities (spells, powers, etc.).
• Enhanced Senses (hearing, scent): As the Adept Powers Enhanced Scent and Amplified Hearing.
• Natural Weapons: Claws inflict S/2+1P.
• Resistance: +2 Body dice to resist disease.
• Sensitive System: double Ess loss from cybernetic implants.
• Social Stigma (ghoul): -2 dice on Social tests (other than Intimidation) when dealing with non-ghouls who are aware of the character's condition. Also, Ghouls may not legally hold a SIN and have no legal rights in most jurisdictions. Additionally, some regions place an open bounty on ghouls.

I intend to properly write this up and PDF it at some point. I'll probably host it on my SR3 campaign wiki (see my .sig). If anyone sees anything especially dumb or questionable (other than my spelling and grammar), please feel free to point it out.

[FrankTrollman]

So your hypothesis is that the basic mook Ghoul listed in the SR4 main book started as a Human with a Body of FIVE?

-Frank

[Glyph]

The basic mook ghoul in the book is a feral pack hunter - I would probably give a lower Body to Joe Wageslave who just recently became a ghoul. I don't think the ghoul mook stats, by themselves, are a good indication of the Attribute modifiers. It is a typical feral ghoul, nothing more (I would probably add astral combat to its skills, as I have a hard time imagining a permanently dual-natured creature not developing that skill).

[FrankTrollman]

The basic mook ghoul in the book is a feral pack hunter - I would probably give a lower Body to Joe Wageslave who just recently became a ghoul. I don't think the ghoul mook stats, by themselves, are a good indication of the Attribute modifiers. It is a typical feral ghoul, nothing more (I would probably add astral combat to its skills, as I have a hard time imagining a permanently dual-natured creature not developing that skill).

It's exactly the same stats as the 1st and 2nd edition ghoul, when it was specifically defined as being applied to someone with 3s across the board. Larger, stronger, tougher ghouls specifically do exist and usually rampage around on their own. The stats shown are for the ghouls who band together in packs, and they are specifically on the small end of ghoulish ass kicking. The idea that they have near maximum Body is completely ridiculous.

In 4th edition, Joe Civilian has lower stats and the default Ghoul doesn't. If anything, a +4 Body increase (5/10 Body) is low.

-Frank

[Grinder]

Yup, the bonus to Body needs to be higher. Or the Body value of the BBB ghoul lowered.

[Malicant]

(I would probably add astral combat to its skills, as I have a hard time imagining a permanently dual-natured creature not developing that skill).

Not really, since he can attack everything that comes near him with his claws on astral as on physical, for him to learn how to attack something in an astral way makes not much sense.

[paws2sky]

So your hypothesis is that the basic mook Ghoul listed in the SR4 main book started as a Human with a Body of FIVE?
-Frank

My proposal is based on a fusion of the ghouls in the SR3 companion and the ones in the critters section of SR1/SR2. Since there's nothing 'offical' in SR4 about playing a ghoul PC, I feel well within my right as a GM to come up with something reasonable to fill that gap until such time as canon ghoul PC rules are published. To that end, in my Shadowrun world, there is more than one kind of ghoul. I point to the distinctions between SR3 companion ghouls and previously published critter ghouls to support this notion. I intend to explore the differences between the two types of ghouls in my mini-campaign, which will involve a small-ish biotech company that is trying to win Big D's prize for the synthetic ghoul food.

I've recently pointed my players who will be in the SR4 mini-campiagn to Dumpshock, so in the interest of not giving away too much of the metaplot to them if they should stumble across this thread, I'll spoiler the details:

[ Spoiler ]

Ghouls that became that way through goblinization are also carriers of the Kreiger Strain HMHVV. They are what most people thing about when the think of ghouls; feral, very physically robust, and very lacking in their ability to socially interact with other metahumans. Without exception, there are no non-human ghouls of this type.

Infected ghouls are referred to as "viral ghouls." These ghouls started life as a normal metahuman, but have suffered the late stage effects of Kreiger Strain HMHVV. This condition is treatable if caught in the first few days of infection. Viral ghouls tend to retain their intelligence and social skills, as well as becoming modestly more robust than others of their metatype.

Both variants can reproduce biologically with other metahumans or ghouls. They can also cause infection through contact with bodily fluids (blood, saliva, semen, etc.). Casual contact with a ghoul will not cause infection. Viral ghouls, who retain most of their intelligence, are much less likely to cause accidental infections.

Outwardly, both types of ghoul have very similar features. Goblinized ghouls tend to be somewhat larger and more robust than their viral counterparts.

I'd be inclined to drop the BP cost before boosting the Body attribute. I like where the Body is at the moment, so I guess I'll just have to disagree with some folks on that point.

So, other than the Body score, is there anything that stands out as wacky or too far out there?

[Malicant]

Compared to an ork, your ghoul right now is way to expensive. Why you ask? Because you hardcoded Sensitive System into him. Drop that and I still think it's wrong to do 7 gazillion diffrent kinds of ghouls (just like subraces in D&D), but the cost/benefit equation will be bearable.

I for myself would use Franks ghoul, since it's assuming PC and NPC ghouls are the same, because it's really bad design to give something to players that is diffrent from it's NPC counterpart.

[paws2sky]

I'll take another look at Sensitive System. Maybe they could stand a slight improvement (+1) to either Rea or Agi? I think I forgot to include an improved movement rate in my notes too.

I don't have an issue with having two ghoul types (more, I guess, if you count the vaious type of viral ghouls). Its still a far cry from D&D where you have countless different Elf subraces, half a dozen different tyoe of dwarf, three or four types of halfling, and strangely, no much variation in orcs. And its hardly the sort of goofiness that SURGE and the metavariants from the SR2 and SR3 companions introduced.

I for myself would use Franks ghoul, since it's assuming PC and NPC ghouls are the same, because it's really bad design to give something to players that is diffrent from it's NPC counterpart.

I've played enough Rifts that I'll have to respectfully disagree with that. 'nuff said.

[Malicant]

"Here your Ares Predator. It is the player version, so it does only 3P and has a +2AP modifier."

Disagree all you want, it is still wrong.

[paws2sky]

Oh, now you're just being silly a silly forum troll.

House rules are house rules. Frank's ghoul rules are no more offical than mine (even if one of us has SR writing credits and the other doesn't) because either way you look at it, they're non-canon for SR4. If you want to use his rules in your game, go for it. If someone wants to use what I've come up with, fine.

-paws

BTW, I expect to see your rules for Great Dragon PCs on my desk in the morning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Fortune]

It isn't which rules you use that is in question. It is the idea that NPC anything is different than the PC version of the same thing. It can be seen as being cheesy.

[Malicant]

Oh, now you're just being silly a silly forum troll.

House rules are house rules. Frank's ghoul rules are no more offical than mine (even if one of us has SR writing credits and the other doesn't) because either way you look at it, they're non-canon for SR4. If you want to use his rules in your game, go for it. If someone wants to use what I've come up with, fine.

-paws

BTW, I expect to see your rules for Great Dragon PCs on my desk in the morning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I might be a troll, but silly is something I don't really enjoy being called. Do so only if you want me to insult you in a similar manner.

In this case, I wasn't even trolling, this was a serious comment. Frank's rules might not be official, but they are consistent. Giving players a ghoul with half the attributes the NPC would have is like handing them guns that do only half damage. It's not even worth called silly, it's just inconsistent. Hence, bad game design.

Why would anyone want to play a GD in SR?

[paws2sky]

It isn't which rules you use that is in question. It is the idea that NPC anything is different than the PC version of the same thing. It can be seen as being cheesy.

Yes, the rules are in question. If they weren't then the thread would have derailed at all, would it? The funny thing is that I don't recall stating I

Please see the OP.

Next, see the spoiler.

None of my players have any issue with a PC ghoul and none of them see an issue with there being two types of ghouls. I know this because I asked them what they thought about it before okaying it. They don't think its cheesy or unfair or abusive.

If I sound like an ass, I don't mean to. I'm trying to get something accomplished here. Having my GMing style/quirks nitpicked isn't what I came here for. I came here because Dumpshock is one of the biggest, best SR communities out there. Was I wrong?

-paws

PS I don't know what ya'll's gaming groups are like, but if this tiny like deviation from canon causes this kind of "you're wrong, I'm right" bickering, then I feel sorry for you. You guys playing with a bunch of suger-high 5 years olds or something? Yeesh.

[paws2sky]

I might be a troll, but silly is something I don't really enjoy being called. Do so only if you want me to insult you in a similar manner.

Then I appologize for calling you silly. I had idea it was such a brutally harsh slur around these parts.

In this case, I wasn't even trolling, this was a serious comment. Frank's rules might not be official, but they are consistent. Giving players a ghoul with half the attributes the NPC would have is like handing them guns that do only half damage. It's not even worth called silly, it's just inconsistent. Hence, bad game design.

There are two sets of rules in SR canon for ghouls: SR companion and Critters.
There are two descriptions of how ghouls come to be in SR canon: Goblinization and Kreiger Strain HMHVV.
There are two descriptions of how ghouls behave: feral pack hunters and intelligent individuals.
I see no reason why there aren't two seperate subspecies of ghoul.

Why would anyone want to play a GD in SR?

A. Because they want vast, ultimate power, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Q. Why would anyone want to play a ghoul?
A. Because they have a story they want to tell or explore a concept.

[Malicant]

There are two sets of rules in SR canon for ghouls: SR companion and Critters.

There is only one source that matter on that point, and that is SR4 BBB.

There are two descriptions of how ghouls come to be in SR canon: Goblinization and Krieger Strain HMHVV.

Goblinization was kicked in the noggin since SR3 companion completly. Canon is, Krieger was mistaken for Goblinization. I don't like it, but that's the case. I would like two different types of ghouls even less.

There are two descriptions of how ghouls behave: feral pack hunters and intelligent individuals.

It's actually more than those two. And all are covered by the same species without need for extra rules. Just like smarter orks don't need a new rules set compared to less smart, but strong orks, if you catch my drift.

I see no reason why there aren't two seperate subspecies of ghoul.

Well, for one they would not be seperate subspecies but seperate species. That's a huge difference, actually. Second problem is, you creat a new species and most likely it will not affect you gameworld in any way, so basically the diffrence is just metagame mechanics.
And to go back to my previous comparison, the PC Ares Predator does less damage, because of inferior manufacturing compared to the NPC Ares Predator. It just sounds wrong that way, wouldn't you agree? As does the creation of a weaker ghoul breed just for PCs.

[FrankTrollman]

There are two sets of rules in SR canon for ghouls: SR companion and Critters.

But the critter rules have been reprinted edition after edition, have seen use in literally dozens of adventures, and have been transfered whole cloth to SR4. The Companion rules have appeared in two books (Target UCAS and Revised Companion as I recall), and are specifically touted as gimped rules to foist on player characters (with NPCs still getting to use the ghoul stats from the SR1, SR2, and SR4 main book as well as the SR3 Critters book).

So yes, Malicants 3P Heavy Pistol is a very apt analogy. The SR3 Companion rules were never written or intended to do anything other than fuck over player characters, something that they do with astounding success. They are very unpopular rules, and rightly so. It's like the Shadowrun Companion Shapeshifter rules - they were written to hose PCs, not to make viable characters or to simulate the critters who actually existed in the game world.

The Companion rules for playing dual characters are like the D&D Level Adjustments. Or like the Changelings/Warforged/Shifters from Eberron. It's not real "monsters as player characters" rules, it's totally gimped monsters as player characters. If you're going to give people chicken shit versions of races you should just tell people that they can't play those races. After all, if you aren't letting them play with the big boy rules, you really aren't letting them play the real thing.

If you won't let people use the real stats you should just tell people point blank that you are uncomfortable with letting them play ghouls. You can let people play recovering Wendigo Cultists or something. There's a lot of stuff in the Shadowrun world. But giving people character options which are flat inferior to the "real thing" is insulting.

-Frank

[Fortune]

Yes, the rules are in question. If they weren't then the thread would have derailed at all, would it? The funny thing is that I don't recall stating I

Please see the OP.

Next, see the spoiler.

Wow! Rudeness. Cool.

I was going to go on and do more than explain that I can, in fact read, and that my post was specifically referring to the couple of posts above mine that were dealing with disparate NPC/PC stats, but I figure why bother. If you are just going to be rude and insult everyone who tries to give an opinion, then there really is no point in continuing a discussion with you.

Have a nice day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

Not really, since he can attack everything that comes near him with his claws on astral as on physical, for him to learn how to attack something in an astral way makes not much sense.

You're thinking SR3. In SR4, you don't get to use your meatbod melee skills against astral opponents (one of the new rules I don't like that much). And the astral combat skill doesn't let you default, either. I don't see a ghoul being attacked by an astral spirit as being passive and helpless, so that's why I think they should have the astral combat skill. Non-mage ghouls are already hosed enough by astral entities who can lob mana spells at them.

[paws2sky]

Wow! Rudeness. Cool.

Yay me. I've have my first argument on Dumpshock. The guy that pointed me in this direction said it wouldn't take long. Here I thought he was kidding... Hmph.

Have a nice day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You too! (seriously)



Its funny, but in the year-ish that my old group played SR3 (back when SR3 companion* came out), none of the regular GMs (we had 4 that rotated duties) wanted to allow Shapeshifters or Ghouls because they thought they were cheesy and overpowered, not underpowered. I come here and the opinion seems to be the complete other way around. I gotta say, I'm having a hard time reconciling that difference.

And I think I'll just leave it and go back to lurking before I manage to piss anyone else off.


*Edit to clarify